Olympus UK E-System User Group
Olympus UK E-System User Group

Join our unique resource for Olympus Four Thirds E-System DSLR and Pen and OM-D Micro Four Thirds photographers. Show your images via our free e-group photo gallery. Please read the e-group.uk.net forum terms and conditions before posting for the first time. Above all, welcome!


Go Back   Olympus UK E-System User Group > Cameras, lenses and system accessories > Camera conference

Camera conference General and model-specific E-System camera chat.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #16  
Old 12th November 2009
photo_owl photo_owl is offline
Full member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Kent
Posts: 1,423
Thanks: 37
Thanked 129 Times in 113 Posts
Likes: 55
Liked 53 Times in 42 Posts
Re: E3 vs E1 with ZD12 - 60

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Ford View Post
I don't sharpen in the camera, but do it in Photoshop, because the degree of sharpening required on an image depends on the final size of the image and the media on which it is to be displayed.

Sharpening is a big subject - the late Bruce Fraser ('an internationally recognised authority on digital imaging') wrote a 288 page book on it!

Here's a good link on why sharpening is required:

http://ronbigelow.com/articles/sharpen1/sharpen1.htm

Jim
wouldn't disagree Jim, but that's for RAW. I believe Garrie shoots jpeg so there is in camera sharpening in the jpeg engine - one way or another.
__________________
E, Pen and OM-D bodies
43 m43 and legacy glass
loads of flashes and accessories from all the systems
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 12th November 2009
photo_owl photo_owl is offline
Full member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Kent
Posts: 1,423
Thanks: 37
Thanked 129 Times in 113 Posts
Likes: 55
Liked 53 Times in 42 Posts
Re: E3 vs E1 with ZD12 - 60

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Temple-Fry View Post
Can't see any difference in the sharpness.

On the whole I'd say the the E-1 picture was slightly underexposed, there is some noise/grain/speckling on the colours would not have been on the pen.

The E-3 is much cleaner, look at the purple and the clear tube.

The E-1 seems to be more highly saturated, partly (I think) because of the exposure, but that's really the photographers call in pp

Garrie - I really can't see (from these) the problem, sorry.

Nick
agree - without identical exposure, colour and saturation etc you can't make any meaningful comparison of other factors. and that's before you get to the issue or what you are really comparing - here it could well be just sharpening settings in the jpeg engine.

overall the 510's engine is very aggressive, and the AA filter a little light. otoh the E3 engine is very smooth and the AA filter a little aggressive - but you can use loads of sharpening either in post or through camera settings without if you wish. I don't know where the E1 sits but the scope is obviously significant - and that's before you consider the resizing.
__________________
E, Pen and OM-D bodies
43 m43 and legacy glass
loads of flashes and accessories from all the systems
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 13th November 2009
Garrie's Avatar
Garrie Garrie is offline
SonorG
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Scotland
Posts: 1,003
Thanks: 65
Thanked 12 Times in 11 Posts
Likes: 2
Liked 7 Times in 3 Posts
Re: E3 vs E1 with ZD12 - 60

Hi,

Thanks for all the comments, I'm a bit confused however (nothing new to me lol)

Yeah I almost always shoot JPG and it totally possible I've got got my E3 setup not as well I had the E510. I love my E3, don't get me wrong, I'm just trying to get it to perform like my trusy old E510

Here are the images full size, straight from the camera, there is a slight difference but I didn't move the tripod only the angle as the E1 is slighty smaller than the E3 (including battery grips)

E1


E3


Thanks for the replies Pleae excuse my messy table lol

Cheers
Garrie
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 13th November 2009
photo_owl photo_owl is offline
Full member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Kent
Posts: 1,423
Thanks: 37
Thanked 129 Times in 113 Posts
Likes: 55
Liked 53 Times in 42 Posts
Re: E3 vs E1 with ZD12 - 60

I don't think set up is a matter of better or worse - it's just understanding the inherent differences and adjusting them to suit your needs.

As an example I would believe Natural Sharpness -1 on the 510 to be similar to Vivid Shaprness +1 on the E3 and even then you could tweak the sharpening in pp on the E3 without artifacts. This isn't an observation on appropriate settings - just how I would change jpeg settings to make the underlying cameras more comparable (then there's colour, G+1 on the E3 etc to finish the job ie it's never ending!)
__________________
E, Pen and OM-D bodies
43 m43 and legacy glass
loads of flashes and accessories from all the systems
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 13th November 2009
michaelavis michaelavis is offline
Full member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Maidenhead, Berks
Posts: 304
Thanks: 23
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Re: E3 vs E1 with ZD12 - 60

Garrie, you may have already done this, but to help you out of the settings maze on he E-3 you may find that setting some time aside to go through the wrotniak website on the e-Series will allow you to move on and enjoy the E-3 doing what it does best, taking great pictures in all kinds of situations and weather!

http://www.wrotniak.net/photo/43/index.html

In particular http://www.wrotniak.net/photo/43/e3-rev.html is a thorough backgrounder on the E-3.

For the settings, this is a great guide that will get you to a solid foundation from which you can tweak things if you want to:-

http://www.wrotniak.net/photo/43/e3-sett.html
__________________
Michael.
E-P3, 14-42, VF-3
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 13th November 2009
gno
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: E3 vs E1 with ZD12 - 60

Hi Garrie,

I've had another look at the full sized images below. To give similar sizes for review I increased the size of the E-1 image to match the E-3.
While the pen point is sharper to my mind on the E-3 image I think its marginal, again I think the pen end and overall the E-1 is sharper.
Looking at the Exif data there are differences in the settings between the two.
The E-1 Contrast and Sharpness are set at (2) While the E-3 settings are normal (0)
Perhaps thats where the difference is? Try again with the E-3 set at the E-1 settings.




Regards

Gavin
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 13th November 2009
photo_owl photo_owl is offline
Full member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Kent
Posts: 1,423
Thanks: 37
Thanked 129 Times in 113 Posts
Likes: 55
Liked 53 Times in 42 Posts
Re: E3 vs E1 with ZD12 - 60

setting the E3 to the E1 jpeg settings will not provide 'equivilence' - they are not a constant.

the only real comparison is to produce the best possible output file from each image capture device (camera) - whether yuou start from the jpeg file or raw doesn't really matter at this level.
__________________
E, Pen and OM-D bodies
43 m43 and legacy glass
loads of flashes and accessories from all the systems
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 13th November 2009
gno
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: E3 vs E1 with ZD12 - 60

Quote:
Originally Posted by photo_owl View Post
setting the E3 to the E1 jpeg settings will not provide 'equivilence' - they are not a constant.

the only real comparison is to produce the best possible output file from each image capture device (camera) - whether yuou start from the jpeg file or raw doesn't really matter at this level.
So what settings would you use as a starting point?
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 13th November 2009
photo_owl photo_owl is offline
Full member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Kent
Posts: 1,423
Thanks: 37
Thanked 129 Times in 113 Posts
Likes: 55
Liked 53 Times in 42 Posts
Re: E3 vs E1 with ZD12 - 60

Quote:
Originally Posted by gno View Post
So what settings would you use as a starting point?
depends on what you are trying to illustrate

in this case (where the issue seems to be image sharpness - between the 510 and 3 but a 1 got involved.......) it has to be raw, or 'best processed'.

the point being that it doesn't matter, for the purposed of the debate, whether the processing is done in camera or by a pp package.

Someone has already posted the link to the Wrotniak recomendations for settings - but these (in the main) presume the next steps and, importantly, assume next steps.

I never had to output 510 files straight from camera to client but with the E3 I use vivid + S+1 for newsprint - I wouldn't use the same approach for a wedding!
__________________
E, Pen and OM-D bodies
43 m43 and legacy glass
loads of flashes and accessories from all the systems
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 14th November 2009
gno
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: E3 vs E1 with ZD12 - 60

photo_owl

I take onboard what you are saying regarding comparisons have to be on a level playing field, but surely by your own argument it must be raw only and not 'best processed' as are the internal processing mechanisms of the two cameras (E-1, E-3) different are they not?

Regards

Gavin
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 14th November 2009
photo_owl photo_owl is offline
Full member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Kent
Posts: 1,423
Thanks: 37
Thanked 129 Times in 113 Posts
Likes: 55
Liked 53 Times in 42 Posts
Re: E3 vs E1 with ZD12 - 60

Quote:
Originally Posted by gno View Post
photo_owl

I take onboard what you are saying regarding comparisons have to be on a level playing field, but surely by your own argument it must be raw only and not 'best processed' as are the internal processing mechanisms of the two cameras (E-1, E-3) different are they not?

Regards

Gavin
Sorry - my poor wording.

I agree.

What I meant by best processed was from the raw file. I'm not a fan of attempting direct comparison of the raw files themselves as, bluntly, there is almost no way to do this either. The real test is what can be produced for the various types of shot with optimum shooting (exposure) and processing.

But there is also a strong case for the comparison of OOC output but only with optimised settings. Here the optimum settings wouldn't necessarily be Wrotniak's because he's producing jpeg files for final adjustment appropriate for the medium to be delivered (recognising that contrast and sharpening will differ based on this).
__________________
E, Pen and OM-D bodies
43 m43 and legacy glass
loads of flashes and accessories from all the systems
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 05:55 PM.


The Write Technology Ltd, 2007-2019, All rights reservedAd Management plugin by RedTyger