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View Poll Results: Are you getting fed up with Brexit and should we go back to discussing other things ?
YES - Close the thread 21 47.73%
NO - Keep the debate going on for eternity 23 52.27%
Voters: 44. You may not vote on this poll

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  #2701  
Old 11th December 2018
DerekW DerekW is online now
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

If we have another referendum, thhen people who wish to vote must prove that they are capable of making a decision.
An exam must be passed that shows that the potential voter understands what Brexit implies, not just for themselves but for the country.
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  #2702  
Old 11th December 2018
Bengeo Bengeo is offline
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

Quote:
Originally Posted by pdk42 View Post
Actually the more I think about this, it seems to me that Brexit is a failed project.
That could have been a headline! This is worth a read:
https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ain-paul-mason
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  #2703  
Old 11th December 2018
Harold Gough Harold Gough is offline
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

Quote:
Originally Posted by pdk42 View Post
Voting remain was clear in what it meant - in great detail.
What we think we know may be short-lived. Poland and Hungary have become disillusioned and the question of a referendum has been raised in both countries this year. Italy's new government is going to challenge EU policies and Spain is very dissatisfied too. I can't believe that Greece is basking in the comfort of membership either.

So that is six or seven out of the twenty-seven who could get out before we do, considering the glacier-speed progress of the UK situation. In fact the alternative way to leave is to do nothing, just stay in and watch it fall apart around us. On the other hand, any of those countries leaving would be potential trading partners if we have exited.

Harold
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  #2704  
Old 11th December 2018
Harold Gough Harold Gough is offline
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

Quote:
Originally Posted by DerekW View Post
If we have another referendum, thhen people who wish to vote must prove that they are capable of making a decision.
An exam must be passed that shows that the potential voter understands what Brexit implies, not just for themselves but for the country.
I hope you are not asking MPs to take the exam.

Harold
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  #2705  
Old 11th December 2018
Tram Tram is offline
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

Quote:
Originally Posted by DerekW View Post
If we have another referendum, thhen people who wish to vote must prove that they are capable of making a decision.
An exam must be passed that shows that the potential voter understands what Brexit implies, not just for themselves but for the country.
This subject is far too complex for the average person hence the reason a referendum was madness in the first place.
Very similar to complex fraud cases that a jury taken from the public are not in a position to render a fair verdict (I believe such cases are now adjudicated by a panel of judges)

Maybe the supreme court should rule on this matter, more chance of getting a result based on fact.
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  #2706  
Old 11th December 2018
Harold Gough Harold Gough is offline
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

Quote:
Originally Posted by pdk42 View Post
Actually the more I think about this, it seems to me that Brexit is a failed project. We need to admit that. Supporting a failed project is not a good strategy at all.
It can't have failed before we reach the exit date. It has been grossly mismanaged and seems likely to fail. A good analogy is Crossrail. We will get it someday, maybe in my lifetime.

Harold
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  #2707  
Old 11th December 2018
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

Quote:
Originally Posted by pdk42 View Post
Actually the more I think about this, it seems to me that Brexit is a failed project. We need to admit that. Supporting a failed project is not a good strategy at all.
It was a failure from the beginning. The PM, Cameron scared of UKIP, gave us a referendum, something we are not used to, and without proper preparation. The referendum did not go his way, so despite his promise to stay as PM, he left. (A sinking ship).
A new leader to the Tory party was elected, the best candidate for the job, also the worst, as she was the only one.
The new PM, a remainer, completely botched up the deal. Her Party is in disarray, there are folk who are sorry for her, I am not. She took the poisoned chalice voluntarily. She was not forced to run for the leaders job, it is her parties fault that we are in this mess, but she must take responsibility for the mess we are in. People were fed up with austerity, less police, Mays fault, she was Home Sec, NHS cannot cope, cannot remember who was health sec, but it doesn't matter. What matters is that the Tories got us into the mess we are in, bring on the revolution (sic)

Rant over, for now.
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  #2708  
Old 11th December 2018
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harold Gough View Post
What we think we know may be short-lived. Poland and Hungary have become disillusioned and the question of a referendum has been raised in both countries this year. Italy's new government is going to challenge EU policies and Spain is very dissatisfied too. I can't believe that Greece is basking in the comfort of membership either.

So that is six or seven out of the twenty-seven who could get out before we do, considering the glacier-speed progress of the UK situation. In fact the alternative way to leave is to do nothing, just stay in and watch it fall apart around us. On the other hand, any of those countries leaving would be potential trading partners if we have exited.

Harold
Surely the response to this is to recognise that change is needed in the EU. Best to be in the tent helping to shape its future.
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  #2709  
Old 11th December 2018
Harold Gough Harold Gough is offline
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

What Theresa May needs not is a new ministerial car, a Delorean!

Harold
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  #2710  
Old 11th December 2018
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sapper View Post
It was a failure from the beginning. The PM, Cameron scared of UKIP, gave us a referendum, something we are not used to, and without proper preparation. The referendum did not go his way, so despite his promise to stay as PM, he left. (A sinking ship).
A new leader to the Tory party was elected, the best candidate for the job, also the worst, as she was the only one.
The new PM, a remainer, completely botched up the deal. Her Party is in disarray, there are folk who are sorry for her, I am not. She took the poisoned chalice voluntarily. She was not forced to run for the leaders job, it is her parties fault that we are in this mess, but she must take responsibility for the mess we are in. People were fed up with austerity, less police, Mays fault, she was Home Sec, NHS cannot cope, cannot remember who was health sec, but it doesn't matter. What matters is that the Tories got us into the mess we are in, bring on the revolution (sic)

Rant over, for now.
That is a good rant Dave! Best to get it off your chest!

I sort of agree with you though - this whole situation is botched. We need a reset moment. Cancel Article 50 and have a general election. Then start again.
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  #2711  
Old 11th December 2018
Harold Gough Harold Gough is offline
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

Quote:
Originally Posted by pdk42 View Post
Surely the response to this is to recognise that change is needed in the EU. Best to be in the tent helping to shape its future.
Best to be on the Titanic to stick our fingers in the hole?

Harold
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  #2712  
Old 11th December 2018
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

The more I think about it the less I am in favour of a second referendum. The country is still split down the middle and a second (or third, depending how you look at it) is unlikely to produce a decisive result either way. About the only thing everyone can agree on is that leaving with no deal would be disastrous. May keeps banging on about delivering the result of the referendum, but in the light of the fact that she said she would not call a general election last year and did so, and up until yesterday morning was stating very firmly that the "meaningful vote" would go ahead, she postponed it, I think she may well decide that Brexit cannot be delivered and go for the best deal we can get - which is the one we already have.

This has gone far enough, it has wasted billions of our money - your money - and got us nowhere. There is enough unrest in other member countries that sooner or later the EU elite will have to take notice and reform else the whole thing will fall apart. When (or if) that happens I'd rather be in with a chance than out with no chance.

With any luck the "nasty party" will split, lose an election, and stop damaging the country ...
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  #2713  
Old 11th December 2018
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tram View Post
This subject is far too complex for the average person hence the reason a referendum was madness in the first place.
Very similar to complex fraud cases that a jury taken from the public are not in a position to render a fair verdict (I believe such cases are now adjudicated by a panel of judges)

Maybe the supreme court should rule on this matter, more chance of getting a result based on fact.
You are not far off the mark..(!!)
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Old 11th December 2018
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto View Post
... With any luck the "nasty party" will split, lose an election, and stop damaging the country ...

So, depending on one's POV, we get rid of one nasty party to vote in another. Seems we really are doomed.
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  #2715  
Old 11th December 2018
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

Let's face it, neither of the two main parties are very credible at present!
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