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  #31  
Old 9th May 2019
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Re: Rumours that Sony has made a 32MP MFT sensor

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Originally Posted by wornish View Post
Simply having more pixels reaches a point of no return. The smaller the pixel the less light falls on it in a given exposure.
Whilst it's true that as its size reduces each pixel captures less light, it's not true to say that s/n ratios at the sensor level have worsened as Mp counts have increased. In fact, the opposite is demonstrably true.

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I think that Google is showing the way forward. They are using high speed, in-phone, stacking and pixel binning to capture more dynamic range and reduce noise at the same time. Oly is also trying a different approach with their Hi-Res stuff.
Multi-frame capture and PP is indeed a very useful technique for all sorts of things (HDR, noise reduction, focus stacking, ...), but it's never going to work for taking shots of stuff that moves (birds, animals, sports, cars etc).
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  #32  
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Re: Rumours that Sony has made a 32MP MFT sensor

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Well, it definitely has to be true that a point will be reached when more pixels is too many, but I don't think we've got there yet. The problem is that as tech evolves, there's always the temptation to say that it's now as good as it ever needs to be - but then tech moves again and statements made in the past look foolish.
Yes. Digital seems to have completely changed our photographic expectations.

In the days of film the vast majority of amateurs and a lot of professionals 'made do' with 35 mm. New emulsions came along with reduced grain, better contrast and so forth but otherwise most photographers lived with the camera bodies that they had and obsessed about new lenses. From the 1970's onwards very few even thought about medium format.

Digital is already vastly superior to 35 mm film in almost every respect, and has been for some time yet we still crave bodies with more pixels.
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Old 9th May 2019
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Re: Rumours that Sony has made a 32MP MFT sensor

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Yes. Digital seems to have completely changed our photographic expectations.
For the worse. In fact I'd say the worst thing that happened to photography in the last 30 years was the development of solid state sensors.

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Digital is already vastly superior to 35 mm film in almost every respect, and has been for some time yet we still crave bodies with more pixels.
You mean the straight line response curve of a digital sensor is superior to the 'S' shaped transfer function of film emulsion.
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  #34  
Old 9th May 2019
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Re: Rumours that Sony has made a 32MP MFT sensor

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For the worse. In fact I'd say the worst thing that happened to photography in the last 30 years was the development of solid state sensors.
I'm not sure I would entirely agree with that Steve. I love using film but digital has brought the joys of 'satisfying' photography within the reach of many more people than would have been possible with film, although I accept that has some negative connotations as well.

Without digital the film manufacturers would have continued pushing the same old stuff, whereas digital has forced them to up their game by producing some superb new emulsions.

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You mean the straight line response curve of a digital sensor is superior to the 'S' shaped transfer function of film emulsion.
No; I am thinking more of the sheer resolution and image clarity provided by current digital cameras and the lack of dust, scratch marks and other hindrances of film. Some may see these as advantages, but I would rather start off with the best possible source material.

I would also question whether the response curves of high contrast transparency films such as Velvia are so much better than digital sensors. They are certainly very little more forgiving!
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Old 9th May 2019
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Re: Rumours that Sony has made a 32MP MFT sensor

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Well, it definitely has to be true that a point will be reached when more pixels is too many, but I don't think we've got there yet.
Agreed and you've only got to look as far as the quality of output resolution achieved with Sigma's Merrill DP1, 2 and 3 with the APSC Foveon sensor in a very compact package.
At low ISOs these cameras compare very favourably with output from bayer sensor 35 mm cameras in the 30 to 36 MB range (and possibly more) using high quality lenses.

My experience was that achieving that high quality output was not difficult either (I had all three Sigmas at one point) providing you kept an eye on shutter speeds.

I think that micro 4/3rds is definitely capable of handling this rumoured resolution hike and very well too.

Edit: One of my favourites from my DP1M
Welford Church 3rd February by Huw Prosser, on Flickr
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  #36  
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Re: Rumours that Sony has made a 32MP MFT sensor

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Originally Posted by Naughty Nigel View Post
I'm not sure I would entirely agree with that Steve. I love using film but digital has brought the joys of 'satisfying' photography within the reach of many more people than would have been possible with film, although I accept that has some negative connotations as well.

Without digital the film manufacturers would have continued pushing the same old stuff, whereas digital has forced them to up their game by producing some superb new emulsions.



No; I am thinking more of the sheer resolution and image clarity provided by current digital cameras and the lack of dust, scratch marks and other hindrances of film. Some may see these as advantages, but I would rather start off with the best possible source material.

I would also question whether the response curves of high contrast transparency films such as Velvia are so much better than digital sensors. They are certainly very little more forgiving!
The negative impact of digital is more to do with the proliferation of dreadful images spread across the 'net, not the technology per se. Prior to digital, clicking the shutter willy-nilly was an expensive business, so photographers made sure about their composition before exposing. Most of the discipline has flown out of the window, unfortunately, the new game in town is to click, over sharpen, over saturate and share it quick!
Don't use reversal so don't give it much thought - over than cross processing it at some stage. (Out of interest, maybe, I've seen some interesting C41 -> E6 results, ie cross processing in the opposite direction).
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  #37  
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Re: Rumours that Sony has made a 32MP MFT sensor

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Originally Posted by Greytop View Post
Agreed and you've only got to look as far as the quality of output resolution achieved with Sigma's Merrill DP1, 2 and 3 with the APSC Foveon sensor in a very compact package.
At low ISOs these cameras compare very favourably with output from bayer sensor 35 mm cameras in the 30 to 36 MB range (and possibly more) using high quality lenses.

My experience was that achieving that high quality output was not difficult either (I had all three Sigmas at one point) providing you kept an eye on shutter speeds.

I think that micro 4/3rds is definitely capable of handling this rumoured resolution hike and very well too.
Your point about Fovean is a good one Huw. I had a DP1m for a short time and the output at low ISO was stunning. Mono conversions in particular were breathtaking:


Scottish Kirk by Paul Kaye, on Flickr



Man's Best Friend by Paul Kaye, on Flickr

Except for IQ though, everything else about the DP1m was awful. But if I could get that level of IQ with my Oly setup, I'd be a very happy bunny!
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  #38  
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Re: Rumours that Sony has made a 32MP MFT sensor

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Except for IQ though, everything else about the DP1m was awful. But if I could get that level of IQ with my Oly setup, I'd be a very happy bunny!
Can't say I disagree, though the DPx Merrills had a character that wasn't always endearing, the output was pretty stunning at ISO 100 - 200.
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Re: Rumours that Sony has made a 32MP MFT sensor

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For the worse. In fact I'd say the worst thing that happened to photography in the last 30 years was the development of solid state sensors.


You mean the straight line response curve of a digital sensor is superior to the 'S' shaped transfer function of film emulsion.
Somehow, I just knew you would come back with an answer like that.
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  #40  
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Re: Rumours that Sony has made a 32MP MFT sensor

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Originally Posted by Ricoh View Post
The negative impact of digital is more to do with the proliferation of dreadful images spread across the 'net, not the technology per se. Prior to digital, clicking the shutter willy-nilly was an expensive business, so photographers made sure about their composition before exposing. Most of the discipline has flown out of the window, unfortunately, the new game in town is to click, over sharpen, over saturate and share it quick!
Don't use reversal so don't give it much thought - over than cross processing it at some stage. (Out of interest, maybe, I've seen some interesting C41 -> E6 results, ie cross processing in the opposite direction).
Yes but.....

I enjoy doing it. That's the point is it not? As an analogy, if you took football for instance, we would only allow the 22 best players to practice the sport.

As for the 32MP, we honestly don't really need it, but it is progress. In the future, if I was choosing a new camera, I would really consider the 32MP, not because I need it, but it is more likely to be a better product in the end...
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  #41  
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Re: Rumours that Sony has made a 32MP MFT sensor

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Yes but.....

I enjoy doing it. That's the point is it not? As an analogy, if you took football for instance, we would only allow the 22 best players to practice the sport.

As for the 32MP, we honestly don't really need it, but it is progress. In the future, if I was choosing a new camera, I would really consider the 32MP, not because I need it, but it is more likely to be a better product in the end...
We're all learning are we not. I try to learn something new photographically every day, just one item and then incorporate it into my way way of seeing.

The hard part is finding good images on the net amongst the not so good.
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Old 10th May 2019
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Re: Rumours that Sony has made a 32MP MFT sensor

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As for the 32MP, we honestly don't really need it, but it is progress. In the future, if I was choosing a new camera, I would really consider the 32MP, not because I need it, but it is more likely to be a better product in the end...
Yes, I certainly don’t need 32Mp for the (mainly fast moving) stuff I do, and I’d just have to spend more on file storage and processing power, but I would be interested if as a result we gained 2/3 or more of a stop signal-to-noise ratio via pixel-binning or similar. In the typical U.K. light situation it would allow a click or two extra shutter speed that would make a big difference to critical sharpness rates for, say, birds in flight in the early morning.

It would need to be matched by sufficient processing speed in the body so the buffer could cope, of course.
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  #43  
Old 10th May 2019
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Re: Rumours that Sony has made a 32MP MFT sensor

I have noticed Adobe are slowly pushing the price up to 20 for the 1TB plan (10 for 20GB) !!
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Re: Rumours that Sony has made a 32MP MFT sensor

How's about 64MP from Samsung

https://petapixel.com/2019/05/09/sam...eid=2a426fcff6
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Old 10th May 2019
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Re: Rumours that Sony has made a 32MP MFT sensor

I must be clairvoyant. Seems Samsung has confirmed what I said earlier, the main benefit of more pixels will be achieved by using 2x2 pixel binning (They call it TetraCell technology) to increase dynamic range and reduce noise. The output will be a 16 MPix file.
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