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The lounge Relax, take a break from photo and camera talk - have a chat about something else for a change. Just keep it clean and polite!

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  #31  
Old 23rd November 2018
Bengeo Bengeo is offline
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Re: Is this a conspiracy?

I think people who quote Orwell should read him first. He didn't like Stalin or Russian State communism, but he was always a socialist.

“Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism, as I understand it.”
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  #32  
Old 23rd November 2018
bredman bredman is offline
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Re: Is this a conspiracy?

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Originally Posted by Bengeo View Post
I think people who quote Orwell should read him first. He didn't like Stalin or Russian State communism, but he was always a socialist.

“Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism, as I understand it.”
Interestingly Orwell separated socialism from statism, as did the ancient Greeks who came up with all this. 1984 is his warning about what statism will look like, and he's absolutely right. Statism refers to size of government, socialism refers to control of means of production (and distribution). Not the same thing but there is a practical link. He couldn't use an oppressive far-right wing government simply because it would have been ludicrous. Political history can be quite interesting whereas modern politics got messed up.

Also, some of the talking points in 1984 have entered the progressive lexicography "the only truth that matters is your truth".

"“How many fingers am I holding up, Winston?”

“Four.”

“And if the Party says that it is not four but five – then how many?”

“Four.”

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  #33  
Old 23rd November 2018
Jax Jax is offline
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Re: Is this a conspiracy?

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Originally Posted by Naughty Nigel View Post
You both have valid points, but referring back to the post #1 this morning there is a clear insinuation that Leave voters are more gullible than Remainders. In my view such slurs are unhelpful and do nothing to encourage free thought or heal divisions.
This thread is leading me to think, apart from a couple of close runners up, Nigel is the only one who talks any sense without expressing an aggressive, needless, thoughtless, unnecessary political bias on here. As he quite correctly points out, name calling, slurs, aimed at opposing political beliefs or opinions, have no place in a genuine discussion on any political topic but some people, no matter how intelligent they appear are unable to grasp the fact.

I often wonder how their conversations would evolve if it was in person, or in a real life discussion group, and not hidden behind a computer.

Jax
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  #34  
Old 23rd November 2018
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Gate Keeper Gate Keeper is offline
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Re: Is this a conspiracy?

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Anyone else noticed how authoritarian and coercive progressives are? They love to pontificate about how everyone else is an idiot or somehow blind, unable to grasp simple [leftist] concepts. It's getting annoying. Notice the ad hominem attacks, how they quote higher authorities in arguments, and question one's qualification to hold specific opinions. And they think that because idiot-rags like the Guardian do it, then it's ok for them to do it. Straight out of Saul Alinsky's playbook for the progressive activist.

Progressives are state-worshippers, who believe they are more evolved than the 'gullible'. The rest of us are not stupid though. I'm a libertarian, i don't trust governments, i don't trust politicians or bureaucrats - power corrupts. I don't appreciate state surveillance. I want less of it all, no nanny state please, less collective solutions, more autonomy for the family and individualism, more self-responsibilty.

But i'm an idiot apparently. Because why, i reject political correctness, the mob, groupthink, and SJWs with their transgender hysteria? I'm failing to see what the far-left can contribute outside of a playground of 16 yo schoolgirl activist utopianists.

The Guardian is just confirmation bias for those that think they've got it all sussed. De-politicise yourselves folks, you-re supposed to be free thinking and educated ffs

This forum would be wise to scrap political discussions.
“De-politicise yourself folks ......”

I can’t see anyone complying.....

I think this forum is very lucky to be able to discuss politics without fear of being bumped off or intimidated. Discussing politics on social media in certain parts of the world can be dangerous, even fatal. The worst outcome here is someone gets a ban.

It’s entertaining to see how some of the Pro Brexit camp lick up to each other in these threads with their kiss ass mentality

To see one or two making unimaginative attempts at bringing down a well thought of and esteemed member, because he quotes The Guardian was acid and desperate. How futile and predictable. PD did not bite back. I commend his response.

Doesn’t everyone read The Guardian? Only teasing

The Pro Brexit camp surely can’t take those Guardian studies seriously, the ones about them believing in conspiracy theories and having a low education is laughable. Can’t they see it is being used as ammunition, to create divisions? I don’t expect anyone to know the answer.

Back to reality and unpacking
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  #35  
Old 23rd November 2018
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Re: Is this a conspiracy?

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Originally Posted by Jax View Post

I often wonder how their conversations would evolve if it was in person, or in a real life discussion group, and not hidden behind a computer.

Jax
I'm only a libertarian mate, harmless honest.

Maybe my first post was a bit direct. No offence was intended. Such is life these days, everyone seems to be ducking and weaving, the world is just getting angry. I'm powerless to fix any of it. My partner has a brain tumour, she's wonderful, an angel from heaven, i love to take care of her and that's all that matters.

Scrap the politics and talk photography. Back into the shadows for me.
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  #36  
Old 23rd November 2018
Jim Ford Jim Ford is offline
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Re: Is this a conspiracy?

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Originally Posted by Bengeo View Post
I think people who quote Orwell should read him first. He didn't like Stalin or Russian State communism, but he was always a socialist.
Yes!

My recollection of 1984 was that it was mainly about how a society can be controlled and manipulated by lies from an all powerful privileged elite.

The distraction from the gross inequality in our society by Brexiteer politicians pointing to Brussels (headed by Junker = Goldstein) as being a malevolent bogey-man is reminiscent of the Oceania vs Eurasia fake conflict. Also, the statement by the Chancellor that austerity is at an end, yet there is widespread poverty that a U.N. report recently pointed out, has a parallel with the 1984 'increase' of the chocolate ration, when in fact it had been decreased.

On a lighter note: I've mentioned before that I attend Moorfields eye hospital about once a month for an injection into my right eyeball. At the end of the procedure while I'm still lying on the table, the injecting nurse holds up her hand and asks me how many fingers she's showing - exactly like when Winston Smith is being tortured by O'Brien in 1984. I always smile and ask them if they've read the book but none of them had, though the last - a Romanian nurse took a note and said that she would.

Jim
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  #37  
Old 23rd November 2018
Jax Jax is offline
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Re: Is this a conspiracy?

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Originally Posted by Gate Keeper View Post
It’s entertaining to see how some of the Pro Brexit camp lick up to each other in these threads with their kiss ass mentality
Yet another prime example of what I referred to in my previous post. Such a futile, childish, nasty comment.

Sometimes it makes me ashamed to be part of this forum.

Jax
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  #38  
Old 23rd November 2018
TimP TimP is offline
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Re: Is this a conspiracy?

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Originally Posted by bredman View Post

It's not only that governments/politicians shouldn't be trusted, but that they are incompetent. It is said, a person is smart, but people are stupid.
I think that the politicians we get / have now are the worst they’ve ever been. Either that or I’m more interested in it nowadays. But I do genuinely believe that they are now a bunch of troughing self seeking offspring of unmarried parents.
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  #39  
Old 23rd November 2018
Jim Ford Jim Ford is offline
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Re: Is this a conspiracy?

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Originally Posted by bredman View Post
Also, some of the talking points in 1984 have entered the progressive lexicography "the only truth that matters is your truth".

"“How many fingers am I holding up, Winston?”

“Four.”

“And if the Party says that it is not four but five – then how many?”

“Four.”
But in the end he actually saw five, as the film versions showed.

(Anyone remember the early 50's television version with Peter Cushing and Andre Morell?)

Jim
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  #40  
Old 23rd November 2018
Jax Jax is offline
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Re: Is this a conspiracy?

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Originally Posted by bredman View Post
I'm only a libertarian mate, harmless honest.

Maybe my first post was a bit direct. No offence was intended. Such is life these days, everyone seems to be ducking and weaving, the world is just getting angry. I'm powerless to fix any of it. My partner has a brain tumour, she's wonderful, an angel from heaven, i love to take care of her and that's all that matters.

Scrap the politics and talk photography. Back into the shadows for me.
You were not the focus of my comment Pete, quite the opposite. I sincerely hope and pray your partner has the positive healthy outcome you and your family hope for.

Jax
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  #41  
Old 23rd November 2018
TimP TimP is offline
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Re: Is this a conspiracy?

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Originally Posted by Jax View Post
Yet another prime example of what I referred to in my previous post. Such a futile, childish, nasty comment.

Sometimes it makes me ashamed to be part of this forum.

Jax
Really? We’re all different, all have different ideas, some good some bad. Many of mine are bad and I expect many of yours are too. None of us are perfect. I’ve spent time in Muslim countries, communist countries and the one thing that strikes me is that for the most part ordinary people are just that, the world over, ordinary people that want to get on with our lives and hold no malice towards other people, other religions, other ideologies as long as those ideologies are not forced upon us.
The one thing we know we have in common is our love of cameras and photography, let’s not let that be spoilt by different views of the world. If we all shared the same views of the world it would be a pretty tragic place!
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  #42  
Old 23rd November 2018
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Re: Is this a conspiracy?

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Originally Posted by TimP View Post
Really? We’re all different, all have different ideas, some good some bad. Many of mine are bad and I expect many of yours are too. None of us are perfect. I’ve spent time in Muslim countries, communist countries and the one thing that strikes me is that for the most part ordinary people are just that, the world over, ordinary people that want to get on with our lives and hold no malice towards other people, other religions, other ideologies as long as those ideologies are not forced upon us.
The one thing we know we have in common is our love of cameras and photography, let’s not let that be spoilt by different views of the world. If we all shared the same views of the world it would be a pretty tragic place!
I agree with most of that Tim, but my objection is not about anyones beliefs or opinions or any ideologies it's about the manner they choose to express themselves. I actually embrace and enjoy a healthy, lively discussion on any subject but do object when persons who obviously consider themselves intelligent choose to resort to slurs or name calling in an attempt to reinforce their opinions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate Keeper
It’s entertaining to see how some of the Pro Brexit camp lick up to each other in these threads with their kiss ass mentality
The section in bold is a prime example and the reason for my objection, not the ideas or beliefs behind it.

Jax
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  #43  
Old 24th November 2018
Internaut Internaut is offline
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Re: Is this a conspiracy?

Before this thread gets (rightly, I think) closed, I’ll make an observation. No one here really attacked the data in the article linked by the OP. Nor did anyone really provide “the alternative facts”. Some did attack the OP and the motivation of the author’s of the article... Sorry, but you lost the argument the moment you did that.

There’s a lot more I can say regarding whether or not Leavers are more likely to be gullible. But that seems out of place here.

Ultimately, I guess the facts are the facts. Jesus shrugged; Atlas wept.
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  #44  
Old 24th November 2018
Jim Ford Jim Ford is offline
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Re: Is this a conspiracy?

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Originally Posted by Internaut View Post
There’s a lot more I can say regarding whether or not Leavers are more likely to be gullible. But that seems out of place here.
I wish you would say more. It's not out of place as conspiracy, real or imagined, is closely tied to the arguments regarding Brexit.

I don't think the thread should be closed - the reasons why some people are drawn to conspiracy theories are interesting, and I have my own ideas.

(Douglas Adam also touched on the subject in his HHGTTG, in which Arthur Dent said to Slartibartfast something along the lines of: 'I've always felt that there was an invisible something controlling my life!' to which Slartibartfast replied 'No, that's just ordinary paranoia - everyone in The Universe has that!')

Jim
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  #45  
Old 24th November 2018
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Re: Is this a conspiracy?

I confess that I've been somewhat surprised by how the tone of this thread headed south so fast. Much of the angst seems to be targeted at the participants and the wider forum community rather than the content of the linked article, which I think is very regrettable - but I suppose predictably human. I do wonder whether we'd be better keeping to photography and not straying into politics.

However, Brexit is clearly THE political issue of at least the last 25 years, and maybe of the entire post-war period. The emotions here are indicative of just how much the Brexit journey has divided and separated us. I suppose those divisions have always been there but it's taken this one single issue to bring them to the fore.

I really hope that the country can get through this period. I'm deeply concerned that we've been wounded as a nation - wounded in the relationships between us as citizens and wounded in terms of our power, influence and respect amongst nations. Whatever the PM and government can now achieve I think the damage is done. None of the outcomes are good. Neither TM's deal, no-deal, or remain will put the egg back together.

Shame on you David Cameron...
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