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  #1  
Old 25th January 2019
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FF or DX as second camera, which would you choose?

I'm not ditching M4/3 but considering adding a second camera, FF or DX.

Which make and model would you choose, max 2k for body and kit lens.

Can you be specific please as to model .

I have E-M1 Mk ll + 12-40mm.
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Old 25th January 2019
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Re: FF or DX as second camera, which would you choose?

I'd go for FF myself; not enough of a difference between m43 and APS-C to warrant buying unless it was a total system change.

Obvious one is the Sony A7 III & 28-70mm (not the best lens) for around 2k or a A7 II & 24-70mm Zeiss (a much better lens) for around 1600.

Nikon Z6 and kit zoom is over your budget, but seems to be a great bit of kit (apart from everyone complaining about it not having two card slots!)

Depends on your uses and expectations I suppose, and we don't know what those are?
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Old 25th January 2019
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Re: FF or DX as second camera, which would you choose?

If you go grey import (e.g. Panamoz), you can get the Z6 + 24-70 for 2k.

Wouldn't bother with APSC - difference not big enough.
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Old 26th January 2019
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Re: FF or DX as second camera, which would you choose?

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Originally Posted by DekHog View Post
I'd go for FF myself; not enough of a difference between m43 and APS-C to warrant buying unless it was a total system change.

Obvious one is the Sony A7 III & 28-70mm (not the best lens) for around 2k or a A7 II & 24-70mm Zeiss (a much better lens) for around 1600.

Nikon Z6 and kit zoom is over your budget, but seems to be a great bit of kit (apart from everyone complaining about it not having two card slots!)

Depends on your uses and expectations I suppose, and we don't know what those are?
https://photographylife.com/best-and...for-a7-cameras
Says about the 24-70mm
Still, when you see the resolution figures below for the 24-70mm f/4 OSS lens, you will understand that the 28-70mm presents a much better overall value.
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Old 26th January 2019
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Re: FF or DX as second camera, which would you choose?

My money would probably go in the direction of a Z6 with the f/4 24-70.

Btw I wouldn't touch a Sony 'Zeiss' 24-70 f/4, I've seen numerous examples from that lens showing very underwhelming performance at the wide end, this is also borne out by respected review sites.
Having handled the A7(R) II and III series camera quite a few times I'm also not a fan of the build quality in respect of port covers buttons and general ruggedness. The Z6/7 is in a different league IMHO.
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Old 26th January 2019
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Re: FF or DX as second camera, which would you choose?

Hmmm, the little reading I've done always recommended the pricier zeiss lens. If performance is about the same, I guess it comes down to how much do you value the extra 4mm at the wide end...... I'm curious now and will read up more, but I don't put too much stock into charts, LPM etc.....
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Old 26th January 2019
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Re: FF or DX as second camera, which would you choose?

I would go for the Huawei mobile phone probably the P30 when it comes out in Spring this year.

The best camera is always the one you have with you and these new phones are good enough for casual shooting. I will still stick to my Oly for more planned shots like BIF etc.
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Old 26th January 2019
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Re: FF or DX as second camera, which would you choose?

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Originally Posted by DekHog View Post
Hmmm, the little reading I've done always recommended the pricier zeiss lens. If performance is about the same, I guess it comes down to how much do you value the extra 4mm at the wide end...... I'm curious now and will read up more, but I don't put too much stock into charts, LPM etc.....
Have a look at some examples on flickr or elsewhere uncropped at 24 mm.
Soft in the corners at any aperture.
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Old 26th January 2019
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Re: FF or DX as second camera, which would you choose?

I agree APSC isn’t worth considering on image quality improvement grounds, so only look there if you have some specific practical needs that individual cameras can meet that m4/3 ones can’t. Examples include my use of the Fuji X70 because it gives good IQ and dynamic range in a thin package that slips unnoticed in to a suit jacket pocket, or a D500 for its high performance CAF.

The same sort of things should guide you on FF as well, I suggest. If this isn’t just a ‘pleasure in ownership’ decision, then it seems to me the main viable reasons for getting one are: ultimate IQ and resolution for very large prints; serious low light performance, especially if you need the best CAF performance (eg indoor fast sports, rock concerts, wildlife in forests and at the extremes of the day); absolutely top class CAF performance for BIF and the fastest sports; extremely narrow dof for portrait & studio work mainly.

I have a s/h Sony A7S that I use for night street photography at up to ISO56000.

Of course, genuinely achieving and capitalising on some of those potential advantages needs a considerable investment in large, heavy and expensive lenses, tripods etc. I’ve had a play with the Sony 28-70 and was extremely unimpressed with its corner sharpness especially at the wide end at anywhere near full aperture...

I also wouldn’t suggest getting an A7ii: no silent shutter rules it out for me and what about the dubious weather resistance?

Are you sure you want/need FF?
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Old 26th January 2019
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Re: FF or DX as second camera, which would you choose?

I mentioned over on Welsh Dave's other post about Park Cameras that I've found a banding problem when pushing Z6 files. Rather than post the example on that thread, I'd thought I'd do it here since it's a somewhat more relevant thread...

So, this is the image I'm talking of. You can download it in raw from the DPReview article where the Z6 is reviewed.



And here it is after PP. Shadows +100, Exp +1.5 stops, Highlights -70:



And here is a crop from the top right in the PPed image:



Now I know that exp +1.5 and shodows +100 is a bit extreme, but OTOH I have had recourse to this sort of pushing before with some landscape shots. This is a good example, taken with the E-M1 where its LE noise really does show badly:


Big Rocks, Small Rocks by Paul Kaye, on Flickr


I know all cameras have limitations, but I'm surprised at the Z6 doing this, esp since the A7iii seems immune to it and they are both very similar cameras in terms of the sensor, PDAF etc. The internet experts reckon it's a PDAF sensor artefact.

As another comparison, I dug out a shot I took a couple of weeks ago with my E-M1ii. ISO 200. I pushed it exactly the same - exp +1.5, shadows +100, highlights -70. Here's the before, after and the crop. Pas mal huh?





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Old 26th January 2019
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Re: FF or DX as second camera, which would you choose?

Very interesting, thanks for that. It's a shame, since I really enjoyed a couple of hours I had with a friend's Z6 doing street shooting - nothing pushed very far, though.
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Old 26th January 2019
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Re: FF or DX as second camera, which would you choose?

I added an E-M1ii example pushed the same.
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Old 26th January 2019
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Re: FF or DX as second camera, which would you choose?

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Originally Posted by pdk42 View Post
I mentioned over on Welsh Dave's other post about Park Cameras that I've found when pushing Z6 files. Rather than post the example on that thread, I'd thought I'd do it here since it's a somewhat more relevant thread...............
Thank you Paul for taking the time to do this, I'm very embarrassed to have to ask you to explain what it all means....what is the conclusion.
It appears as if you are surprised by something that the Z6 did/should not have done.
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Old 26th January 2019
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Re: FF or DX as second camera, which would you choose?

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Originally Posted by Dave in Wales View Post
Thank you Paul for taking the time to do this, I'm very embarrassed to have to ask you to explain what it all means....what is the conclusion.
It appears as if you are surprised by something that the Z6 did/should not have done.
It's the horizontal banding Dave. If you push the exposure and the shadows up a lot in post processing (i.e. using Lightroom to process the raw file) then it happens with the Z6 files. It's been noted by many testers on the internet. The Sony A7iii doesn't do it.

Does it matter? It depends on whether this sort of extreme post processing on the images is something that you're likely to do. For some landscape shooting then it might be needed.
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Old 26th January 2019
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Re: FF or DX as second camera, which would you choose?

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Originally Posted by pdk42 View Post
It's the horizontal banding Dave. If you push the exposure and the shadows up a lot in post processing (i.e. using Lightroom to process the raw file) then it happens with the Z6 files. It's been noted by many testers on the internet. The Sony A7iii doesn't do it.

Does it matter? It depends on whether this sort of extreme post processing on the images is something that you're likely to do. For some landscape shooting then it might be needed.
Thanks Paul for your patience, firstly...what banding, secondly....I can't see me ever pushing to those extremes.
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