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The lounge Relax, take a break from photo and camera talk - have a chat about something else for a change. Just keep it clean and polite!

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  #76  
Old 20th November 2015
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Re: The Shocking Events in Paris

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As the Turkish journalist commented in the link that I posted, IS want to get us and others to reach by sending ground troops into Syria, so that we hand them - and al-Qaida - a propaganda coup with many more Muslims. And Cameron wants to wade in, just as Blair did before him. H'mmm. Do as I say, not as I do, and stuff the consequences?
So what should we do, (or not do)?

Do we ask Jeremy Corby to write a nice letter to the terrorists? Do we invite them round for tea and cakes?

My first instinct would be to leave well alone, as we can be sure it won't end well whatever we do, or however well intentioned our actions. But is doing nothing an option when there are millions of Syrians and others from the Middle East being displaced?

Being nice to terrorists doesn't work. ISIS, Al-Qaida et al have already proved their ability to bring bloodshed to streets of Europe, Russia and the USA wherever and whenever they want, and with frightening regularity. What next? Dirty bombs, biological or nuclear attacks?

Even if we handed them the keys to No 10 and accepted Sharia Law they wouldn't be happy until Britain was reduced to a pile of rubble like the hell-holes that we see on our television screens every day. Do we really want that?

Given that the Paris terrorists came to Europe via Greece as refugees I think it is understandable that many people will be concerned that thousands of refugees are heading to the UK, even though we are assured that they have been vetted before being flown here.
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  #77  
Old 20th November 2015
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Re: The Shocking Events in Paris

I don't really want to get drawn too deeply into peoples opinions on this thread, but it seems to me that the strategic solution to this extreme middle eastern/N African terrorism will be political. Attacking Syria is likely to be as negative as was attacking Afghanistan and Iraq, political hubris which cost lives of civilians and western soldiers and achieved nothing whatsoever.

I haven't forgotten the 3331 people killed in the UK by terrorism in the last 30 years of the previous century, terrorism which spread to the continent and killed many more there. Can you imagine how much worse it may have been if we'd attacked Eire? How many more 'patriots' would have enrolled? That was finally ended by some smart and humble politics.

We need some smart politics now, some humility and a cessation of hypocritical middle eastern foreign policy. It's going to be long haul, meanwhile lets hope the security services can keep us safe.
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  #78  
Old 20th November 2015
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Re: The Shocking Events in Paris

I don't really have an opinion on what we should do (or not do) as I really don't know. As I said, it won't end well whatever we do.

I take your point about Eire and political settlements, but the IRA and the Loyalists had readily identifiable leaders who were prepared to sit around a table without suicide vests on where they agreed to a ceasefire. It was a long, slow process, and many people still believe the British government made too many concessions; but we did get the peace that everyone other than the terrorists wanted.

But what are the chances of reaching a Good Friday settlement in the Middle East?
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Old 21st November 2015
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Re: The Shocking Events in Paris

This could esculate. Are we heading towards WW3?
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Old 21st November 2015
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Re: The Shocking Events in Paris

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This could esculate. Are we heading towards WW3?
I don't think so. Europe, the USA, Russia and most Islamic nations have condemned IS and seem to agree that something must be done about them. The important thing is to use diplomacy (with other countries, not IS) before escalating military action in Syria and Iraq to get a consensus over the scale and scope of that action. It will no doubt be a difficult and frustrating process requiring great patience and in the meantime we might have to be content with containing IS within the areas they already control and limiting their capabilities, rather than going all-out to destroy them. If any good could possibly come out of this desperate situation, in the long term it is likely to be progress towards agreement on a clear international policy to achieve a political solution in Syria. It is probably too optimistic to hope for an eventual solution that includes Israel, to the wider Middle East problem.
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Old 21st November 2015
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Re: The Shocking Events in Paris

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...

But what are the chances of reaching a Good Friday settlement in the Middle East?
Well yes, I agree that this is a hugely more difficult situation, many countries under attack and totally impossible demands by the terrorists, with whom negotiation is impossible.

But I think it's a useful comparison for a couple of reasons. First, it makes it pretty obvious to see to see how a military attack on a persons homeland, killing innocent civilians, would act as a recruiting agent. Secondly it puts the actual dreadful events into perspective. As a country we have been here before and we didn't start sending every person with an Irish accent back to Eire and we didn't clamour for an attack on Eire.

It took 30 years to sort out The Troubles. I suspect it'll take longer to sort this out. Killing off ISIS isn't a solution, they'll just morph into something else just like Al Queda morphed into ISIS.

As Zuiko says it needs a wider solution involving the UN and with the support of the major Islamic states.

And it needs a resolution to the Israeli problem, which is the root cause of much of this.
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  #82  
Old 21st November 2015
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Re: The Shocking Events in Paris

What's not well remembered in the West is that we have a long history of interfering in the Middle East going back centuries. Britain and other western and Eastern states supported tyrannical regimes because of our own interests, whether those interests were strategic, religious or petrochemical.

I absolutely condemn ISIS and all their actions. I do wonder what we would do if the game were reversed.

Imagine living in a truly oppressive and chaotic state. When you were young your father had been taken in the night and never seen again. Your children were starving but died when your end of town was hit with an attack of mustard gas.

Not only does the rest of the world sit back and watch this happen, your president has modern weaponry sold to them by rich nations, weapons that are heavily subsidised by those foreign governments because they want your nation's oil.

200,000 civilian have been killed. Millions are fleeing their homes. The dead were your family and your friends. You are devastated.

Then, into town comes another force with charismatic leaders who are fighting against this injustice. You have heard about them because the word has been spreading about the significant battles they have won against your oppressors. They are uncompromising and daunting, but they are fighting for you and promise freedom from colonialism and a better life for those who follow them.

They tell you that they are the winning side. Their leaders are skilled in the use of language. They tell harrowing tales of the rich nations bombing their cities, killing their children. Their towns have been gassed by your president too, but this small army of freedom fighters are fighting back and winning. You think that they follow in the footsteps of Abdel Nasser.

You might tell yourself that if you were in that situation then you would not get drawn into supporting thugs like Isis, but it was not that long ago when the entirety of Germany was swept along by the charismatic Nazis promising a better life free from the shackles of oppression. Look at how many people in Britain support the BNP, Britain First and other extremist organisations of hate, sucked in by their propaganda. What would Britain be like if they were in power.

We vote for successive governments that support the oppressive regimes, that sell arms to despots. We know it happens and do nothing. We sit by and watch while our state kills children in other lands. We cry out when they hit back and call on our leaders to hit back even harder.

We believe the lies told by our mainstream politicians ("we won't cut tax credits.") so why would we not be taken in if we were experiencing the horrors of war. Look at the number of people who vote for our government despite the suffering they are causing. A million people visiting foodbanks! Our ruling elite burn 50 notes in the faces of the homeless and still we vote for them. They claim excessive expenses and work for their personal interests and still we put an X against their name. (Actually, most of us didn't, but that is down to our perverse electoral system that's skewed to maintaining the status quo.)

The gap between rich and the rest of society is widening and the poorest, disenfranchised people look for some way to fight back against the injustice being done to them. They relate to the oppressed people of Syria and follow their leaders.

Yes, what they do is wrong, horribly wrong. But, we have to take some responsibility for the situation that gave us ISIS.
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  #83  
Old 21st November 2015
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Re: The Shocking Events in Paris

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Police? Ah, yes - I remember them! Didn't they used to patrol our streets ensuring law and order was kept? I guess with knifings and shootings in our streets on a daily basis, they consider it too dangerous nowadays to step outside their stations or patrol cars!

Don't get me started on our police!

Jim (A policeman's son, as well as being an atheist!)
Really Jim what police stations, they're being sold off around here. Where there used to be bobbies patrolling it's done by PCSO's because there aren't any police officers. They're not hiding as you suggest. When the government and the newspaper's say crime figures are down this might be so. However there are now different demands on police as the service of last resort, anti-social behaviour, neighbour disputes, mental health, violent and sex offender management for example and all at a time when police officer numbers are lower now than they were thirty years ago.
I'm guessing your father would probably agree that policing used to be 10% knowledge of the law and 90% common sense. Now its run by clueless politicians and ambitious business managers who might once have been policemen and women, while the increasingly thinner blue line is desperately trying to keep a lid on things.
Don't get me started on how the police service has evolved under the successive governments of the past thirty years.
Paris was an atrocity carried out by savages who have struck again in Mali. Savages who have a perverse view of their religion and have no fear of death but in fact relish the prospect. Unfortunately there are untold numbers of such people living and hiding in plain sight in our country who hate us and our British way of life.
Further cuts to policing budgets are due soon and with our ever increasing diverse population I don't think ours is going to be a safer future by any means.


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  #84  
Old 21st November 2015
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Re: The Shocking Events in Paris

This is a good read on the background. Reaping what we sowed.
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  #85  
Old 23rd November 2015
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Re: The Shocking Events in Paris

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This could esculate. Are we heading towards WW3?
Well if Donald Trump gets his own way by introducing religion specific ID cards in the USA, and "looking at mosques very carefully" then who knows.

If you thought George W was an idiot to trump all idiots you were wrong. Trump has just trumped himself! God help us all if he gets into power.


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  #86  
Old 23rd November 2015
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Re: The Shocking Events in Paris

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Originally Posted by Naughty Nigel View Post
Well if Donald Trump gets his own way by introducing religion specific ID cards in the USA, and "looking at mosques very carefully" then who knows.

If you thought George W was an idiot to trump all idiots you were wrong. Trump has just trumped himself! God help us all if he gets into power.


BBC News Link
Actually, it is the possibility of an irrational, trigger-happy, right-wing zealot one day becoming President of the USA that makes me pause when advocating nuclear disarmament for the UK. Just because America has been our friend for a long time doesn't guarantee they will always be our friend in the future and there are enough dangerous people with extreme views in US politics to make this a real concern.
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  #87  
Old 23rd November 2015
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Re: The Shocking Events in Paris

But suppose it comes down to Trump or the box of frogs Carson!

Jim
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  #88  
Old 23rd November 2015
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Re: The Shocking Events in Paris

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Actually, it is the possibility of an irrational, trigger-happy, right-wing zealot one day becoming President of the USA that makes me pause when advocating nuclear disarmament for the UK. Just because America has been our friend for a long time doesn't guarantee they will always be our friend in the future and there are enough dangerous people with extreme views in US politics to make this a real concern.
The Americans have not always been the first to rush to our defence in times of need, especially when there is a conflict with American interests.

America likes to think of itself as the world's policeman, but it certainly doesn't make the world a safer place.

Edit. And now the Turks have shot down a Russian fighter jet, claiming it was violating Turkish airspace. The term 'playing with fire' comes to mind.
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