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The lounge Relax, take a break from photo and camera talk - have a chat about something else for a change. Just keep it clean and polite!

View Poll Results: Are you getting fed up with Brexit and should we go back to discussing other things ?
YES - Close the thread 21 47.73%
NO - Keep the debate going on for eternity 23 52.27%
Voters: 44. You may not vote on this poll

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  #361  
Old 6th August 2018
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

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Originally Posted by Johnheatingman View Post
In a perfect world, forum Admin would be strictly un-biased and neutral where any sensitive topic was discussed ( Politics, Religion, Race ). For Admin to openly declare a political bias such as the case in this forum may put potential members off joining or contributing and make moderating when and if required, rather awkward.

But hey ! We all know it's not a perfect world so just carry on enjoying

John
As long as it's not personal I don't see any problem with myself or the moderators joining the debate. By personal I mean personally disrespectful. If you have a very strong view on something, it is of course personal, but as long as everyone can agree to disagree, if necessary, and not be nasty to anyone here, I don't see a problem.

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  #362  
Old 6th August 2018
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

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Originally Posted by Naughty Nigel View Post
So what do you want me to do about it Ian?

Agreeing with you won't make an iota of difference even if it makes you feel better. Is there an unwritten rule somewhere that you have to express lefty-liberal views to be allowed an opinion on this forum?

If I had had my way we would never have become so closely wedded to the EU in the first place, but we didn't get any say in that. It just happened. I am not happy that Dr Richard Beeching closed nearly half of our railways in 1963; a decision which was clearly flawed both then and now, but I didn't get a say in that either. And I am certainly not happy that we went to war in the Middle East to rid Saddam of his WMD's, but yet again nobody, least of all our local MP and PM listened to me or the hundreds of thousands who protested against the Iraq war!

I have already said that I would rather that we were not leaving the EU, but a referendum was held, and the people voted to leave. That is fact, not 'sullen resignation'. We don't know for sure what the outcome will be, but we have just got to get on with it. Claiming that you have fallen out with friends over the referendum result is hardly a sound reason for overturning a referendum result.

If, in four years time Jeremy Corbyn wins the next General Election there is no doubt in my mind that it would be in the national interest, and that of the EU to overturn the result. Would you be happy about that?

Just grow up and get a grip.

Goodnight.
As, if you remember, I said earlier - what is the point of this thread?; everyone here is set in their ways.

I'm not expecting you or anyone else to do anything for the above reasons. But maybe others, maybe just reading rather than participating, might find new insight into Brexit from considered and respectful debate on the subject. It's a long shot though. Instead, I and others here have been categorised as 'snowflakes' who need to 'get a grip'. How is that helpful or productive?

Ian
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  #363  
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

Quote:
Originally Posted by DavyG View Post
I don't believe I said I was upset, I was simply pointing out that the thread has the potential to divide the forum.

I haven't been involved in the discussion however, I have read the thread.

Dave
There are only a few names contributing, so it is not typical of the active membership. I can’t see how the few can divide the forum. So far, it’s harmless banter. But there have also been intelligent and well thought out comments from both camps. Some of the language used such as “get a grip” is powerful, but what does it really mean? I do not expect you to know the answer as you did not say it
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  #364  
Old 6th August 2018
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Naughty Nigel View Post
Is there an unwritten rule somewhere that you have to express lefty-liberal views to be allowed an opinion on this forum?
I don't know if you are suggesting I am a 'left-winger', it kind of sounds like it, but I had been a life-long Tory voter until the last general election. I view myself as a centre-ist but as the Conservatives appear to have veered right and Labour left, there is a vacuum in the middle. There has been talk of a new party being formed to fill that void, which is what happened in France - I'd probably vote for it, or Lib Dem if not, based on current policies.

I do sense that my forthright disagreement on your own point of view stems from the fact that I wish and hope for there to be a change to what you might call the 'inevitable' - whereas you have accepted the 'inevitable' even though, it seems, you don't agree with Brexit.

It's nothing personal at all, but of course I am dismayed that there does seem to be a good number of those who voted Remain who are unwilling to stick to their principles.

After all, this wasn't a general election vote where the incumbent government can be given a chance for 5 years and then be punished if it doesn't deliver.

Brexit, assuming it happens, is for good, for better or for worse. The consequences are far far greater.

In the end, I can't see May's government delivering Brexit. The Tories will implode well before that. In the mean time Labour seems to be trying hard to lose voters as well.

If Brexit dominates the next general election, I believe it could be a new mandate superseding the referendum.

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  #365  
Old 6th August 2018
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

One thing seems clear and is being demonstrated again and again across the whole country:

It’s not going well and the vast majority of people are saying the same things

https://goo.gl/images/uxa6Tw

Google “Brexitometer” and just look at the number of images that all say how badly this fiasco is going.
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  #366  
Old 6th August 2018
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

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Originally Posted by Johnheatingman View Post
I would have been amazed it the result were anything but as shown, run by such an unbiased group of people

John
That one was picked at random, find me another
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  #367  
Old 6th August 2018
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian View Post
If you compare GDP of France and the UK (so PRE referendum) between 2015 and 2018 (IMF data) France's GDP has increased by 20.9 percent and the UK's has increased 2.7%.

Youth unemployment is a big problem everywhere because of the global crash in 2008. The UK's solution has been to get as many people as possible off the unemployment register by forcing them to do gig-economy or other low-wage work so businesses get cheap labour instead of the state paying. That's why the UK's productivity figures are so dire compared to France.

The reason why established 'pro Europe' governments are having a hard time is because of the big influx of Middle Eastern and African refugees, which stokes up far right and nationalist egos. It has pretty much nothing to do with the EU.

Of course the EU is democratic. It has a parliament of MEPs democratically elected in all member countries. What's undemocratic is the likes of UK troublemakers getting elected and then doing all they can to wreck the place. Very democratic that. Not.

As we're playing Any Questions, what about:
  • When is Turkey joining the EU?
  • Was the £350 million NHS slogan a lie?
  • Do you think America, let alone Trump, will grant us a quick and favourable trade deal ppst-Brexit, and are you happy with us importing chlorinated chicken, GM foods, hormone meat, etc.?
  • Do you really think UK drivers will stop buying German cars if there is an additional tariff on EU car imports?
  • How is the border situation with the EU and Northern Ireland going to be solved?
  • Would the Brexit vote have succeeded if you removed those who only voted Leave because they, let's be polite, aren't keen on foreigners?
  • Is Brexit going to cause Scottish independence?
  • Will UK fisheries actually get a dramatically better deal than they do now considering around half of UK fishing is landed on the continent and much of the rest of it is exported to the rest of the EU.
  • What will happen to most of the UK car industry if anything but the softest of Brexits happens?
  • What is guaranteed to be good about Brexit?
  • Has the UK been a good member of the EU, making the most of the opportunities the EU offers and so been at the heart of the evolution and direction the EU has taken?

Etc., etc.

Ian
Not keen on this game, I answered the questions and nobody is answering mine.

Ian
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  #368  
Old 6th August 2018
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian View Post
Not keen on this game, I answered the questions and nobody is answering mine.

Ian
I was having a day off but I will try and answer your questions.

When is Turkey joining the EU?
If the EU and for that matter Turkey survives then within the next 5 - 10years.

Was the £350 million NHS slogan a lie?
NO simply a statement of the gross figure as of then, in fact it will be higher than that if we stay on our current terms.

Do you think America, let alone Trump, will grant us a quick and favourable trade deal ppst-Brexit, and are you happy with us importing chlorinated chicken, GM foods, hormone meat, etc.?
Yes the US will do a deal. not keen on GM Foods.

Do you really think UK drivers will stop buying German cars if there is an additional tariff on EU car imports?
Of course not, only less of them.

How is the border situation with the EU and Northern Ireland going to be solved?

This is a totally made up non issue to help out the Irish government fight off their national opposition parties.


Would the Brexit vote have succeeded if you removed those who only voted Leave because they, let's be polite, aren't keen on foreigners?

Last time I checked everyone over 18 can vote in this country not only those who have the same opinion as you.

Is Brexit going to cause Scottish independence?

Don't really care, thats down to the Scots.

Will UK fisheries actually get a dramatically better deal than they do now considering around half of UK fishing is landed on the continent and much of the rest of it is exported to the rest of the EU.

Probably not but at last they are control of their own destiny.

What will happen to most of the UK car industry if anything but the softest of Brexits happens?

It will change yes, the management will have to tweak their supply chains - end of.

What is guaranteed to be good about Brexit?

Nothing in life is Guaranteed. What is guaranteed to be good about staying?

Has the UK been a good member of the EU, making the most of the opportunities the EU offers and so been at the heart of the evolution and direction the EU has taken?

People voted for the MEP's who made their case to be elected. They did what they promised.


There thats my take.
Welcome other views.
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  #369  
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

Let's look at 'Project Fear'. Brexit campaigners lambasted this as a tactic to scare voters into voting remain. Before the referendum they called the 'expert' comment as lies and even suggested that experts were no longer wanted. Today, Brexit protectors rub their hands in glee and say, 'look, Project Fear predictions never came true!.

Let's see, have we left the EU yet? Um, no. So Project Fear cannot be judged yet, can it?

But since the referendum the country's GDP growth has fallen behind the rest of Europe, the Northern Ireland border issue has come home to roost, industry is already preparing to 'readjust' their investments in the UK and even the most conservative of estimates indicate that Brexit has already cost the UK billions.

And we haven't even left yet.

Personally, I felt that the 'Project Fear' attack by Leave was a master stroke; not because it was true, but because it was an effective psychological counter-attack. Sadly, for all of us, I think Project Fear will rebound on all of us, including Brexit campaigners.

Ian
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  #370  
Old 6th August 2018
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian View Post
Let's look at 'Project Fear'. Brexit campaigners lambasted this as a tactic to scare voters into voting remain. Before the referendum they called the 'expert' comment as lies and even suggested that experts were no longer wanted. Today, Brexit protectors rub their hands in glee and say, 'look, Project Fear predictions never came true!.

Let's see, have we left the EU yet? Um, no. So Project Fear cannot be judged yet, can it?

But since the referendum the country's GDP growth has fallen behind the rest of Europe, the Northern Ireland border issue has come home to roost, industry is already preparing to 'readjust' their investments in the UK and even the most conservative of estimates indicate that Brexit has already cost the UK billions.

And we haven't even left yet.

Personally, I felt that the 'Project Fear' attack by Leave was a master stroke; not because it was true, but because it was an effective psychological counter-attack. Sadly, for all of us, I think Project Fear will rebound on all of us, including Brexit campaigners.

Ian
Project fear made claims that things would happen immediately after the vote. to name a couple :- An immediate Punishment budget, and at least 500,000 jobs will be lost. Its only after realising none of this was happening did they start to say we haven't left yet .
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  #371  
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

Quote:
Originally Posted by wornish View Post
I was having a day off but I will try and answer your questions.

When is Turkey joining the EU?
If the EU and for that matter Turkey survives then within the next 5 - 10years.

Was the £350 million NHS slogan a lie?
NO simply a statement of the gross figure as of then, in fact it will be higher than that if we stay on our current terms.

Do you think America, let alone Trump, will grant us a quick and favourable trade deal ppst-Brexit, and are you happy with us importing chlorinated chicken, GM foods, hormone meat, etc.?
Yes the US will do a deal. not keen on GM Foods.

Do you really think UK drivers will stop buying German cars if there is an additional tariff on EU car imports?
Of course not, only less of them.

How is the border situation with the EU and Northern Ireland going to be solved?

This is a totally made up non issue to help out the Irish government fight off their national opposition parties.


Would the Brexit vote have succeeded if you removed those who only voted Leave because they, let's be polite, aren't keen on foreigners?

Last time I checked everyone over 18 can vote in this country not only those who have the same opinion as you.

Is Brexit going to cause Scottish independence?

Don't really care, thats down to the Scots.

Will UK fisheries actually get a dramatically better deal than they do now considering around half of UK fishing is landed on the continent and much of the rest of it is exported to the rest of the EU.

Probably not but at last they are control of their own destiny.

What will happen to most of the UK car industry if anything but the softest of Brexits happens?

It will change yes, the management will have to tweak their supply chains - end of.

What is guaranteed to be good about Brexit?

Nothing in life is Guaranteed. What is guaranteed to be good about staying?

Has the UK been a good member of the EU, making the most of the opportunities the EU offers and so been at the heart of the evolution and direction the EU has taken?

People voted for the MEP's who made their case to be elected. They did what they promised.


There thats my take.
Welcome other views.
Thank you for that - much appreciated (I mean that).

Most of the response are aspirational, uninformed (Turkey - 5-10 years?! really???) or simplistic (sorry) but there are a couple I have to rebutt:

Quote:
What is guaranteed to be good about Brexit?

Nothing in life is Guaranteed. What is guaranteed to be good about staying?
So you can't even hint at anything good that is certain to come of Brexi? I find that astonishing. So why are we going through all this pain?

In answer to your counter-reply, the certainty of staying is that the economy would get a massive boost thanks to certainty about the future guaranteeing stability. And that's just the start.

Quote:
Has the UK been a good member of the EU, making the most of the opportunities the EU offers and so been at the heart of the evolution and direction the EU has taken?

People voted for the MEP's who made their case to be elected. They did what they promised.
Sadly, only a tiny proportion of the electorate vote in UK MEP elections. This, sadly, means oddballs get elected. It's democracy at its worst. It's almost as bad as Sin Fein participating in UK parliamentary elections, winning, and not participating in the House. But at least they can say they a good proportion of the vote.

Ian
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  #372  
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

Quote:
Originally Posted by wornish View Post
Project fear made claims that things would happen immediately after the vote. to name a couple :- An immediate Punishment budget, and at least 500,000 jobs will be lost. Its only after realising none of this was happening did they start to say we haven't left yet .
I will conceded that some aspects of what was called 'Project Fear' by Leave were unsatisfactory. It could well have cost Remain the referendum.

But if you dig deeper than the ill-chosen warnings you are perfectly right to remind us of, the bulk of the message refers to what would happen after we leave.

Frankly, punishment budgets and whatnot would never have been permitted to happen. Half sensible governments are driving the vehicle called the UK and there would be no sense in smashing the car up to prove a point. But with Brexit the car is getting perilously close to a cliff and I'm not sure the driver knows where to steer.

Ian
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian View Post
Thank you for that - much appreciated (I mean that).

Most of the response are aspirational, uninformed (Turkey - 5-10 years?! really???) or simplistic (sorry) but there are a couple I have to rebutt:



So you can't even hint at anything good that is certain to come of Brexi? I find that astonishing. So why are we going through all this pain?

In answer to your counter-reply, the certainty of staying is that the economy would get a massive boost thanks to certainty about the future guaranteeing stability. And that's just the start.



Sadly, only a tiny proportion of the electorate vote in UK MEP elections. This, sadly, means oddballs get elected. It's democracy at its worst. It's almost as bad as Sin Fein participating in UK parliamentary elections, winning, and not participating in the House. But at least they can say they a good proportion of the vote.

Ian
Whats wrong with being aspirational. I would rather have that than be simply told what to do in a vassal state. One in which only "the elite" know best - no thanks Soros.

One good thing from leaving is we will be allowed to do trade deals with non EU countries. They make up over 80% of Global trade and growing , the EU is shrinking .

The low turnout for EU elections should tell you something ? Maybe people don't care about it.
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  #374  
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

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Originally Posted by Johnheatingman View Post
Less BMW drivers on our roads would be a definite bonus

John
My point, if it wasn't clear enough, is that those in the UK who already own and love their BMWs, Audis and Porsches are mostly in the financial situation and of the persuasion to fork out the extra cash to continue their addiction. So the Leave assertion that the German car industry would be severely damaged if the EU don't do a deal is, I think, aspirational rather than likely.

So I doubt there will be less new BMWs on the road after Brexit. Sorry.

Ian
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian View Post
I will conceded that some aspects of what was called 'Project Fear' by Leave were unsatisfactory. It could well have cost Remain the referendum.

But if you dig deeper than the ill-chosen warnings you are perfectly right to remind us of, the bulk of the message refers to what would happen after we leave.

Frankly, punishment budgets and whatnot would never have been permitted to happen. Half sensible governments are driving the vehicle called the UK and there would be no sense in smashing the car up to prove a point. But with Brexit the car is getting perilously close to a cliff and I'm not sure the driver knows where to steer.

Ian
Project fear certainly cost them my vote!

If you get chance read my link in post #423. Moving to WTO terms if far from the cliff edge.
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Doomed to failure David Morison Foto Fair 3 5th September 2012 08:00 AM


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