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The lounge Relax, take a break from photo and camera talk - have a chat about something else for a change. Just keep it clean and polite!

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Old 20th November 2016
Harold Gough Harold Gough is offline
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Contactless Card Cloning

You can protect against this by placing a sheet of foil at each end of the card compartment of your wallet.

Harold

http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/late...actless-device
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Old 20th November 2016
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Re: Contactless Card Cloning

Mmm . . . . Daily Star so must be true !

https://malwrpost.wordpress.com/2016...s-infusion-x5/
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Old 20th November 2016
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Re: Contactless Card Cloning

Hmmm. Aluminium foil doesn't block magnetic fields.

What you need is Mu-metal, an alloy of nickel, iron, copper and chromium or molybdenum.

But how practical that would be in a wallet I'm not sure.
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Old 20th November 2016
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Re: Contactless Card Cloning

http://www.theukcardsassociation.org...curity2015.asp
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Old 20th November 2016
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Re: Contactless Card Cloning

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Originally Posted by Adagio View Post
I work in the retail & payments business. It's not too hard to buy machines that will read contactless cards. Whilst it's true that all it will return is the card number and expiry date (as the article you linked to says), this is actually very useful information. It's probably enough to make a MSR (mag stripe) copy of your card and use it for purchases in places where Chip/PIN authentication is not used (e.g. the USA). If they were also able to get your name and address, then they could use it for internet purposes only.

It's amazing how easy card fraud is really once you know the tricks. For example, it's easy to pay with someone else's card if you have it. Try this with your friend's/wife's/husband's card:

- Cover up one or more of the pads on the chip on their card using some thin selotape.

- Go and have a nice meal in a restaurant

- At the end, go to pay with their card. The card terminal will reject the card since it can't read the chip.

- Play the "that's odd, it's done that a few times this week. Let me give it a quick polish and see if it works again". Rub the card on your jacket or whatever and get the assistant to try again.

- It'll fail again. Rinse and repeat until the 3rd time and which point the card terminal will give up on Chip/PIN and fall back to using the magnetic stripe.

- You'll now be asked to sign the slip. Make a decent impression of your friend's signature. 9 times out of 10 they never check anyhow.

- Enjoy the "free" meal
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Old 20th November 2016
Harold Gough Harold Gough is offline
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Re: Contactless Card Cloning

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Originally Posted by Naughty Nigel View Post
Hmmm. Aluminium foil doesn't block magnetic fields.

What you need is Mu-metal, an alloy of nickel, iron, copper and chromium or molybdenum.

But how practical that would be in a wallet I'm not sure.
Are we talking about magnetic fields? Foil blocks microwaves.

Harold
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Old 20th November 2016
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Re: Contactless Card Cloning

The reason I was looking up such matters is that my credit card, replaced last year for a similar reason, has become increasingly unreliable in contactless mode. even when held flat against the reader, at a variety of angles. I am not worried about other people accessing it but inconvenienced by the delay. It is OK with chip & PIN. My card goes nowhere to get dirty, except on the readers, and I don't see why such dirt would affect function.

Harold
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Re: Contactless Card Cloning

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Are we talking about magnetic fields? Foil blocks microwaves.

Harold
Low power radio waves. I'm not sure what kind of frequency they operate on.
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Re: Contactless Card Cloning

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Originally Posted by Naughty Nigel View Post
Low power radio waves. I'm not sure what kind of frequency they operate on.
The system used is Near Field Communication (NFC) with small loop antennas. It operates at a frequency of 13.56 Mhz and data rates of 106Kb/s, 212Kb/s or 424Kb/s. The RF field from the "card reader" is used to power the chip which functions as a passive transponder. "Practical" working range is up to 10cm. A similar system is used for "ID Chips" in dogs.

Regards.
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Old 21st November 2016
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Re: Contactless Card Cloning

I discovered when I got my first contactless Barclaycard that if it was next to my Oystercard in my wallet the Oystercard wouldn't work in the wallet - causing some rush hour irritation for those behind me at the barrier
My brother found the same thing with his Oystercard and work pass - tube gates and office doors refused to work with the cards next to each other.
As I'm covered against fraud and I've never actually used the contactless feature on any of my cards I'm not worrying
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Old 21st November 2016
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Re: Contactless Card Cloning

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Originally Posted by PeterBirder View Post
The system used is Near Field Communication (NFC) with small loop antennas. It operates at a frequency of 13.56 Mhz and data rates of 106Kb/s, 212Kb/s or 424Kb/s. The RF field from the "card reader" is used to power the chip which functions as a passive transponder. "Practical" working range is up to 10cm. A similar system is used for "ID Chips" in dogs.

Regards.
OK, so it is doubtful that a sheet of aluminium foil just a few microns thick will stop it from working?

I will try it next time I use the Co-op self serve.
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Old 21st November 2016
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Re: Contactless Card Cloning

Quote:
Originally Posted by AMc View Post
I discovered when I got my first contactless Barclaycard that if it was next to my Oystercard in my wallet the Oystercard wouldn't work in the wallet - causing some rush hour irritation for those behind me at the barrier
My brother found the same thing with his Oystercard and work pass - tube gates and office doors refused to work with the cards next to each other.
As I'm covered against fraud and I've never actually used the contactless feature on any of my cards I'm not worrying
TFL did warn against keeping their Oyster card and a contactless bank card together as there was a risk of double payments being taken at ticket barriers.

From what you say it sounds as if this is unlikely.
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Old 21st November 2016
Harold Gough Harold Gough is offline
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Re: Contactless Card Cloning

Quote:
Originally Posted by AMc View Post
I discovered when I got my first contactless Barclaycard that if it was next to my Oystercard in my wallet the Oystercard wouldn't work in the wallet - causing some rush hour irritation for those behind me at the barrier
My brother found the same thing with his Oystercard and work pass - tube gates and office doors refused to work with the cards next to each other.
As I'm covered against fraud and I've never actually used the contactless feature on any of my cards I'm not worrying
Allergy to oysters is quite common!

Harold
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Old 21st November 2016
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Re: Contactless Card Cloning

So if you have two contact less cards in a wallet does that mean there is a chance you could pay twice if the second one in the wallet is within range of the sensor?
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Old 21st November 2016
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Re: Contactless Card Cloning

Quote:
Originally Posted by Naughty Nigel View Post
OK, so it is doubtful that a sheet of aluminium foil just a few microns thick will stop it from working?

I will try it next time I use the Co-op self serve.
Not so. RF currents circulate in the surface area of a conductor, the higher the frequency the thinner the surface layer which is why at high frequencies it is often necessary to gold or silver plate conductors. The presence of any metalic object in close proximity to the card will at least distort the RF field and absorb some of its energy. That is one of the reasons card issuers advise against using cards without removing them from purses etc. which could contain keys or other metalic objects. It is also one of the reasons the card readers/terminals instruct you to Tap with the card, they cannot detect the mechanical "tap" but it ensures you get the antenna on the chip near enough to the antenna in the reader.

Regards.
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