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Camera conference General and model-specific E-System camera chat.

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  #16  
Old 7th October 2014
pvasc pvasc is offline
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Re: dabble with FF

Don't know, if I were to use it to try out, and for just a wedding and sell it on I would be seriously thinking of renting one, not buying. I think you would lose a lot less money that way.
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  #17  
Old 7th October 2014
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Re: dabble with FF

Ricoh, I don't know any first principles, but I see what you're getting at. But I think Ralph has an idea what could be going on. However, even the mirrored Olympus DSLRs don't have problems with dust. Methinks Canon and Nikon implant a sachet of dust in the mirror box to keep the cleaners in business. Well, it's as good a conspiracy theory as any!
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  #18  
Old 7th October 2014
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Re: dabble with FF

Read this Brian
http://visualsciencelab.blogspot.co....ee-omd-em.html

Or this is the pertinant bit.

Quote:
Another aspect of contrast detection AF mirror-less cameras that thrilled me was the focusing accuracy. You may think that the super quick focus of mirrored PD AF cameras is a wonderful thing until you've struggled with focus shift. I used an 85mm 1.4 Zeiss lens on my Canon cameras on the last go around and if you focus wide open and then the camera stops down to expose you'll get focus shift. It's part of the lens design. It's also tough as nails to hit sharp focus on the Canon screens that are optimized to give bright viewfinder images at the expense of visual focus acuity. In order to be certain I'd gotten the images I needed from that 85mm I really needed to be on a tripod, using a loupe and the camera's primitive live view function.

When you switch to mirror-less cameras one of the first things you notice is that you don't have focus shift and you don't have front or rear focusing issues. If you nail focus on an eye then that's where the focus actually ends up. If nothing else the focusing accuracy of the mirror-less cameras will probably be the nail in the coffin for mirrored DSLRs. What good are 36 megapixels and high DXO scores if the damn camera doesn't nail focus
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  #19  
Old 7th October 2014
Ulfric M Douglas Ulfric M Douglas is offline
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Re: dabble with FF

Quote:
Originally Posted by brianvickers View Post
...I'm tempted to try a Fuji XT1 (APSC) instead of a 6D. Both the 6D and XT1 appear to handle noise better than the OM-Ds ..
You really need to take all three cameras into the conditions of your wedding and dig into their ISO/noise characteristics to be sure.
The difference may not justify the expence/learning involved.
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  #20  
Old 7th October 2014
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Re: dabble with FF

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph Harwood View Post
Hi there Ricoh!

I would be tempted to think that a big mirror flapping up and down at high speed would be the perfect thing to flick dust about, just before the shutter opens to allow said floating dust to attack the sensor.

The Olympus system just works so well - I change lenses a dozen times when I am out in all weather conditions, and whilst I do try my best to shield the camera body and rear elements, I am still amazed that the only dust spots I have ever had were self-inflicted INSIDE the SSWF when I converted my E-420 to full spectrum.

Cheers,

Ralph.
In effect the mirror is disturbing the air and it's contents, but since the mirror goes up and down the effects should be equal and opposite. But I see your point some might stick (by sticking, are we thinking electrostatic, I wonder).

Anyway, I neither own a DSLR. or intend to do so and I'm encouraged by the reports I read about the olympus dust collection system.

Anyway, I'm off now to write out my lines, 'I must not challenge the superior dust prevention system found in Olympus M4/3 cameras'.
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  #21  
Old 7th October 2014
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Re: dabble with FF

Quote:
Originally Posted by StephenL View Post
Ricoh, I don't know any first principles, but I see what you're getting at. But I think Ralph has an idea what could be going on. However, even the mirrored Olympus DSLRs don't have problems with dust. Methinks Canon and Nikon implant a sachet of dust in the mirror box to keep the cleaners in business. Well, it's as good a conspiracy theory as any!
I wonder why canon and nikon don't use the same technique, ultrasonic sensor shaking and sticky tape, or is it patented.
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  #22  
Old 7th October 2014
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Re: dabble with FF

I think the later ones do have a dust removal system, but it's not generally thought to work as well as Olympus'. Don't know why.
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  #23  
Old 7th October 2014
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Re: dabble with FF

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Originally Posted by OlyPaul View Post
Read this Brian
http://visualsciencelab.blogspot.co....ee-omd-em.html

Or this is the pertinant bit.
That's a very good point Paul and it chimes completely with my experience (at least in practice - but I'm not sure it's always focus shift since I guess that depends on the lens and in any case u43 AF will only fix it if the focussing is done stopped down, which I don't think it is. MF is a different issue and for sure mirrorless is a big help here).

I think the biggest wins on mirrorless AF accuracy are the fact that the focus point can be put almost anywhere in the frame and that they are inherently accurate - no calibration necessary.
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  #24  
Old 7th October 2014
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Re: dabble with FF

Quote:
Originally Posted by brianvickers View Post
<snip>I have a wedding to do next year<snip>
I'd welcome any advice or therapy....please...
Always start with the end in mind:

What will be the most likely size of any image that gets printed? I've had excellent (Exhibition Quality) prints produced to 20"x16" from and 8Mp body. Most wedding pictures end up in books, which at best are 10"x8".

I regularly produce A3+ prints from the 16Mp and have never once had a comment made about IQ.

There really is only one thing to get right at the wedding, the dress... All the rest needs to be is good solid photography, but the dress may cost more than you camera, so getting that right is by far the most important shot.

I've only done a few (for friends/relatives) and hated the pressure of it all.

Knowing your kit is vital to getting the best results, so a new camera is a bad idea.

Have fun
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  #25  
Old 7th October 2014
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Re: dabble with FF

I love the FF of my OM cameras.

Interesting piece about FF Sony A7s from an OM-D user's point of view:
http://imaginegnat.tumblr.com/post/9...rst-week-snaps
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  #26  
Old 7th October 2014
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Re: dabble with FF

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph Harwood View Post
Hi there Ricoh!

I would be tempted to think that a big mirror flapping up and down at high speed would be the perfect thing to flick dust about, just before the shutter opens to allow said floating dust to attack the sensor.

The Olympus system just works so well - I change lenses a dozen times when I am out in all weather conditions, and whilst I do try my best to shield the camera body and rear elements, I am still amazed that the only dust spots I have ever had were self-inflicted INSIDE the SSWF when I converted my E-420 to full spectrum.

Cheers,

Ralph.
I had a stubborn dust bunny in my E30 but after several puffs from a hand blower I eventually shifted it. After that, I've had no other reasons to want to clean an Oly sensor.
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  #27  
Old 7th October 2014
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Re: dabble with FF

Biggest problem I found with FF is the sheer size (and cost) when you want a long telephoto lens.

It's amazing "how short" 200mm suddenly becomes in FF (even though years ago all we really had was FF ignoring Medium Format for a second).

This year at Le Mans I took images using an Olympus 40-150 R lens that were comparable to my Canon 100-400 L (I did love that lens though...) on a 5D Mark II 2 years ago.

I appreciate that the 40-150 is only equivalent to 300mm in FF terms but the point is how much more compact the M 4/3rds system is.

I've had a lot of D-SLRs and I can't say I've really had a dust problem though apart from my first ever Digital SLR which was a Nikon D100 and the amount of dust the sensor would attract was unreal.

Then I was always mega careful in swapping lenses quickly, keeping the camera facing down and out of the wind when changing too probably helped.

In my OM days I seemed to survive with 3 primes for most things: 24mm, 50mm and 100mm until I could afford the 85mm F2...

Mal.
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  #28  
Old 7th October 2014
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Re: dabble with FF

Thanks Guys...you are really making me think here.
I think my 50D sensor had a shake feature to keep it clean. I did calibrate its focussing once as I'd been having focus problems. I guess 'mirrorless' has 'engineered out' those issues...as well as mirror shake. I has a look at a D610 and 6D...and it was almost a retro experience handling that style of camera now that I've become used to M43. It was comfortable though with plenty of room to move around the controls.
I agree that to rent a second body for the wedding would be the sensible option.
I'm beginning to accept there is no rational technical decision to go FF......but that doesn't mean I don't want to satisfy that itch.
I remain undecided.....but when I make that decision it won't be because I'm ill informed...thanks everyone!
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  #29  
Old 11th October 2014
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Re: dabble with FF

well I ended up in Calumet in Manchester.....spent an hour with a Nikon D610, Canon 6D with 24-105 and FujiFilm XT1 - and the whole range of lenses......and came out with the Xt1, 18-55 and a 35mm f1.4. The process of elimination of the others was difficult regarding full frame....the Nikon had an under performing zoom lens as part of the kit....the Canon was just so big and heavy with the 24-105 with only 4 frames a second and was close to going home with me but I went for the Fuji for similar reasons I chose M43. The Fuji is giving incredibly clean hi ISO images....the zoom is not unto the 12-40 pro standard but its good. The user interface is very good.
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  #30  
Old 12th October 2014
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Re: dabble with FF

Really nice camera Brian, I particularly like the knobs and dials for 'proper' user control, unlike many modern cameras where you haven't a clue without looking at the display or EVF. I hope Olympus move in the same direction at the next 'pro' release.
I take it the FF itch has gone away for the time being.
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