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The lounge Relax, take a break from photo and camera talk - have a chat about something else for a change. Just keep it clean and polite!

View Poll Results: Are you getting fed up with Brexit and should we go back to discussing other things ?
YES - Close the thread 21 47.73%
NO - Keep the debate going on for eternity 23 52.27%
Voters: 44. You may not vote on this poll

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  #2026  
Old 16th November 2018
TimP TimP is offline
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

I’m sure I used to have a higher opinion of politicians in the past, but I’m afraid that’s gone completely in recent years. Maybe it’s as I’ve got older and they’ve got younger, I dunno.
Does a good constituent MP make a good minister? Probably not. I think a lot of them start off with the best of intentions (some obvious exclusions though) but soon get sucked in by the trough and from that point on its a lost cause.
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  #2027  
Old 16th November 2018
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

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Originally Posted by pdk42 View Post
As a fervent remainer, I'm backing TM's deal. Here's why:

- Our negotiating position with the EU was never going to be strong and anyone who thought we could carry on in the single market with all its benefits once we left can only be described as delusional. An exit deal that the EU would accept and that would meet the demands of JRM and his cronies was never a realistic possibility.

- JRM might now say we should leave with no-deal, but anyone who understands the issues knows that leaving with no deal will be very, very hard on us economically in the short to medium term. Unless you're a complete ideologue then no deal is a really, really bad idea.

- The deal on the table may not be perfect, but it's a deal that won't hurt us too badly economically and we can build on it from there. Maybe that will lead to further distancing from the EU in time, or maybe we'll move closer together again. Who knows what the country will think in 5-10 years. I think we need to follow through on the 2016 result so that we can live with our decision and see how it feels.

But as a remainer don't I want another referendum? Well, it's an appealing prospect, but it's very risky:

- It's by no means sure the political situation will allow it to happen. We could end up crashing out with no deal first and that would be a real disaster.

- The result is by no means sure. We're still a divided nation.

- A vote to remain would be very hard to take politically - I can see it causing even more division in our society than there is now.

So, as I said, I'm backing TM's deal. On a personal level I wouldn't wish on anyone the pressure she must have been under. Sure she's made mistakes (2017 election and agreeing to the NI backstop being pretty high on the list), but as others have pointed out, her resilience and dedication has been exemplary. Boris, DD, Raab etc all had the luxury of principled resignation and the platform to then snipe from the sidelines. If she'd done that we'd have been in even more merde than we are now.

If there's one villain of the piece, that I'd gladly punch in the nose, then it would be Cameron.
I'm not so sure I do feel sorry for TM, I'm becoming more and more convinced that there is a lot more steel in her than we realize. She seems to have the confidence of one who knows her position is unassailable because nobody else has the guts to challenge her to a leadership contest. Not because they fear they might lose but more because they are terrified they might win, which is absolutely the last thing any of them would want in the current situation.
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  #2028  
Old 16th November 2018
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

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Originally Posted by Zuiko View Post
I have full confidence in our politicians to achieve one thing and one thing only, to fudge the issue. The deal currently on offer goes some way towards making this possible and I'm sure that with some minor tweaks it could become a complete and utter fudge, with the appearance that we have left the EU without actually having done so in practice.
At last, the penny has finally dropped?

Baldrick's 'cunning plan' has now been exposed. To mis-quote from Star Trek. "It's Brexit Folks... but not as we know it.

The icing on the cake... We, Joe Public will get a second vote in order to ensure the blame lies at the feet of those totally resposible for the Brexit quagmire... The voting public ?


As for the real culprits... more truffles anyone?
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  #2029  
Old 16th November 2018
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

A general election is a possibility, but no certainty with the fixed term government act. But if the government can't govern, what alternative is there. The DUP won't support the withdrawal agreement as written, and if they withhold support completely in protest then maybe a general election will follow. In which case I think we're more likely to see the Labour Party in power and they want economic union with the EU, which yet again leads to leaving the EU in name only. Or if the Labour Party calls another referendum, they will go down in history as the party who enabled a rise in National Popularism, to be remembered forever.
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  #2030  
Old 16th November 2018
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

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Originally Posted by Wally View Post
At last, the penny has finally dropped?

Baldrick's 'cunning plan' has now been exposed. To mis-quote from Star Trek. "It's Brexit Folks... but not as we know it.

The icing on the cake... We, Joe Public will get a second vote in order to ensure the blame lies at the feet of those totally resposible for the Brexit quagmire... The voting public ?


As for the real culprits... more truffles anyone?
Good morning I was listening to Nigel Farage yesterday and he said if there was a second vote, more people than ever before would vote to leave the EU. How can he possibly know that. A truffle please
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  #2031  
Old 16th November 2018
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

Well, more people might vote leave but I suspect they'd be well outnumbered by those who vote remain - the overall turnout would almost certainly be higher. Funnily enough Wally there's been a photo montage going around with Baldrick looking over Mrs May's shoulder, captioned "Mrs May's new Brexit Secretary".

I don't think a General Election or a Tory leadership challenge are the answer, it would just increase the chaos!
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  #2032  
Old 16th November 2018
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

According to the Ch4 survey, more would vote to remain. Also the demographic has changed, those too young to vote are now of a voting age and are more likely to vote remain. Importantly there's more information out there about the ramifications of leaving the feathered nest, especially with regard to the potential break up of the Union, so I imagine the leavers would change their mind also. But, there is an issue. The hard-liners would always vote to leave, and if they believe the main parties have betrayed them, they could turn to an extreme form of far right politics. There is a party there in the waiting area.
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  #2033  
Old 16th November 2018
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

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Originally Posted by Ricoh View Post
A general election is a possibility, but no certainty with the fixed term government act. But if the government can't govern, what alternative is there. The DUP won't support the withdrawal agreement as written, and if they withhold support completely in protest then maybe a general election will follow.
The DUP are a joke, they canít even make up a government themselves. Maybe TM needs to ask for her bung back if she doesnít get their support over Brexit - thatíd screw Ďem.
  #2034  
Old 16th November 2018
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

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Originally Posted by wornish View Post
We should just now leave without an agreement and make a new start as a country, yes it will be bumpy but worth it in the end.
I agree 100%. To accept the deal, or have another referendum is going to leave the Brexiteers forever snivelling that they were robbed and that the 'will of the people' was denied. The country will remain severely divided for a very long time.

The severe austerity following a 'no-deal' Brexit will focus minds and unite the country, ultimately leading to a request for us to rejoin the E.U.. Unfortunately the E.U. will then be firmly in the driving seat and we'll have to accept terms considerably less advantageous than those we already have.

It all seems pretty obvious to me!

Jim
  #2035  
Old 16th November 2018
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

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I don't think a General Election or a Tory leadership challenge are the answer, it would just increase the chaos!
Exactly. Whatís needed is for all politicians of all parties to get behind this and make it work. That they canít see this is worrying in itself.
Still, I guess we get the government we deserve.
  #2036  
Old 16th November 2018
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

I wish somebody would explain exactly why it will be worth it in the end, instead of woolly mutterings about trade deals and "sovereignty"! So far as I'm aware the UK is and always has been a sovereign state, and if we leave the EU without a deal I'm not sure what we'll have left to trade in a year or two ..
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  #2037  
Old 16th November 2018
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

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Originally Posted by pdk42 View Post
It's no good Richard. The Brexit mindset has been forged by lies from the usual media outlets for the past 10 years or more. Coming up with reasonable, evidence-based arguments will not beat the ingrained delusions that so many hold. Best let them have their Brexit and just hope that we collectively return to our senses in as short as time as possible for the sake of our children's futures.
Absolutely correct. It's denialism and for me the same mindset as creationism and flat earthers. No matter how much information and fact, backed by evidence, nothing will cause a rethink.

Hec
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  #2038  
Old 16th November 2018
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

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Originally Posted by Otto View Post
I wish somebody would explain exactly why it will be worth it in the end, instead of woolly mutterings about trade deals and "sovereignty"! So far as I'm aware the UK is and always has been a sovereign state, and if we leave the EU without a deal I'm not sure what we'll have left to trade in a year or two ..
What do we actually make in this country any more apart from some specialised kit and major financial services. Surely weíre not an industrial power any more. Aircraft industry all but gone, as is shipbuilding and car manufacturing (foreign owned)
However we do buy stuff, lots of stuff so people should want to sell us that stuff - yes, I know itís mostly crap from China!
  #2039  
Old 16th November 2018
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

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Originally Posted by Ricoh View Post
Is David Cameron 100% at blame, I think not. The commons voted by 544 to 53 to proceed with the referendum. Was it a bad move, yes.

I wonder if anyone in government has considered asking the Republic of Ireland to leave with us. It would unlock the backstop issue and free up negotiations.

A second referendum would seem the sensible way forward, but to do so could let the genie out of the bottle. Overturning the original vote could disenfranchise half the population and could quite possibly lead to a rise in political popularism. Polititions recognise this so I don't think a second referendum will happen for a long time to come.
A point of information. Half the population is already disenfranchised. Myself very much included.

As far as I am concerned I am no longer represented in any meaningful way in Westminster. The Parliamentary system has been shown to be defective with the first past the post voting system a large part of the problem. Party politics, naked ideology and self interests rule with no regard for integrity or any sense of honour. It took a private citizen to force a debate in parliament via the law for which the Daily Hate rags branded her and the judges "enemies of the people". What an absolute disgrace no matter if you are a leaver or remainer. To see such a slide in standards is deeply dispiriting.

Personally I have been called a remoaner and a doom and gloom merchant to my face. Of course the aforementioned printed press have made that sort of thing mainstream and acceptable.

I have no idea where we will end up in the next few days, months and years but for the first time in my 65 years I find myself genuinely angry about the state of political discourse and worried about what might happen.

Happily the weekend beckons and I can temporarily dull my senses by way of intoxicating liquid.

Rant over and apologies.

Hec
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  #2040  
Old 16th November 2018
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

Pah! Call yourself Grumpy Hec and only now are you angry about politics?
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