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  #16  
Old 17th November 2015
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Re: Expose to the Right of the Histogram!

Do digital cameras not use a gamma function, like monitors and printers, to allocate more levels to the dark end and fewer to the light? I'd be surprised if they don't.
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  #17  
Old 17th November 2015
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Re: Expose to the Right of the Histogram!

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Do digital cameras not use a gamma function, like monitors and printers, to allocate more levels to the dark end and fewer to the light? I'd be surprised if they don't.
Richard,
The camera's photosensors (and hence the values in the RAW file) are captured in a linear manner i.e. the recorded value is directly proportional to the number of photons (or light intensity) that has reached each sensor site [unless black or white level clipping occurs].
The application of the gamma function only occurs when the RAW file is subsequently converted in either a PP program on your computer or else within the camera's built-in JPEG engine.
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  #18  
Old 17th November 2015
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Re: Expose to the Right of the Histogram!

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Originally Posted by Otto View Post
Do digital cameras not use a gamma function, like monitors and printers, to allocate more levels to the dark end and fewer to the light? I'd be surprised if they don't.
There is a Gamma adjustment for the JPEGs in Olympus Viewer.
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  #19  
Old 18th November 2015
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Re: Expose to the Right of the Histogram!

Thanks for the explanation Chris which makes perfect sense. I wasn't aware how raw RAW really means .
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Old 18th November 2015
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Re: Expose to the Right of the Histogram!

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Thanks for the explanation Chris which makes perfect sense. I wasn't aware how raw RAW really means .
[PEDANT_MODE]
"raw" means raw - it's not an acronym so ought not to be capitalised. JPEG is an acronym so should be capitalised (as it usually is).

In common usage raw is often RAW - but common usage is just plain wrong!
[/PEDANT_MODE]

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  #21  
Old 18th November 2015
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Re: Expose to the Right of the Histogram!

Thank you Which Tyler
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  #22  
Old 19th November 2015
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Re: Expose to the Right of the Histogram!

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Originally Posted by Jim Ford View Post
Page 7 of "Camera Raw with Adobe Photoshop CS2" by the late-great Bruce Fraser* states:

"Correct exposure is at least as important with digital capture as it is with film, but correct exposure in the digital realm means keeping the highlights as close to blowing out without actually doing so, as possible. If you fall to the temptation to underexpose images to avoid blowing out the highlights, you'll waste a lot of the bits the camera can capture, and you'll run a significant risk of introducing noise in the midtones and shadows. If you overexpose, you may blow out the highlights, but one of the great things about the Camera Raw plug-in is its ability to recover highlight detail" ... "so if you're going to err on one side or the other, it's better to err on the side of slight overexposure."

Jim
Now I wonder why this thread was started?

did a little fiddling around this morning to show how important it is to use as much of the camera's histogram as possible; especially the right hand side but without overexposing the light areas in the subject.

this is more for the new the photography mob; the experience know it; don't we

When we underexpose the file we are adding noise into the file. Yes it can be removed to a certain extent PP however that can also reduce the quality of the file if pushed too far. However blown out areas are much worse than noise

For these photos I used 1600 iso just to add some noise

this file was around 1-2 stops underexposed so the shadows are rather dark and noisy.
Neither file has any noise reduction editing; however they have been sharpened which shows up the noise even more


this file has been pushed to the right of the histogram to the very limit; in fact there were some very little spots of white on the posts overexposed (showing up with in LR) .



1/750 f13 iso 1600
by Ian Browne, on Flickr

the picture I was looking at and is the same file as the 2nd above; I liked the shadow of the barb wire

the image is after
by Ian Browne, on Flickr

For 1600 iso it's rather a clean file imo after a bit of basic noise reduction in LR

I hope that clears some of the muddy water for you. When in doubt; bracket when possible Try this little experiment. Go outside and point the camera at the sky; use av/auto/ESP metering (multi point). You should see the histogram is all bunched up in the middle which means the subject is very flat (lacking contrast). Take a photo.
Now adjust the settings (aperture/shutter/exposure compo) so the histogram is moves to the right as far as you are game and take another photo. That second file will be your cleanest file as far as noise goes; BUT

Yep; there are always buts in the real world of photography. As we move the histogram right we will be dropping the shutter speed. Not a drama while pointing the camera at the sky; however we need to watch we don't drop the shutter speed too low when photographing something darker or in darker light and we will then need to consider a tripod or higher iso. Easy to get caught if we are not thinking

And a good point I have noticed with the Oly em1 is the ESP metering is so hellishing damn accurate . I very seldom use anything but ESP. Unlike a DSLR the OLYs have a live histogram in the viewfinder so we just need to move that histogram to suit the subject. So easy!!

Learn to see where the subject is causing minor h/light clipping. Small spots like a bit of very light/white cloud inside the main cloud can often be fixed PP with cloning/healing. Or make two exposures so you can blend the files in PS; sounds spooky but a simple bit of part blending isn't hard once understood and that could be the difference between a good photo and a great photo.

When editing in lr I always have the clippings showing as red (HL) and blue (Blacks) on the screen. These days I watch the LR histogram more than the image when getting the exposure/blacks/whites correct.
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  #23  
Old 19th November 2015
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Re: Expose to the Right of the Histogram!

Quote:
Originally Posted by IanB View Post
Now I wonder why this thread was started?

did a little fiddling around this morning to show how important it is to use as much of the camera's histogram as possible; especially the right hand side but without overexposing the light areas in the subject.

this is more for the new the photography mob; the experience know it; don't we

When we underexpose the file we are adding noise into the file. Yes it can be removed to a certain extent PP however that can also reduce the quality of the file if pushed too far. However blown out areas are much worse than noise

For these photos I used 1600 iso just to add some noise

this file was around 1-2 stops underexposed so the shadows are rather dark and noisy.
Neither file has any noise reduction editing; however they have been sharpened which shows up the noise even more


this file has been pushed to the right of the histogram to the very limit; in fact there were some very little spots of white on the posts overexposed (showing up with in LR) .



1/750 f13 iso 1600
by Ian Browne, on Flickr

the picture I was looking at and is the same file as the 2nd above; I liked the shadow of the barb wire

the image is after
by Ian Browne, on Flickr

For 1600 iso it's rather a clean file imo after a bit of basic noise reduction in LR

I hope that clears some of the muddy water for you. When in doubt; bracket when possible Try this little experiment. Go outside and point the camera at the sky; use av/auto/ESP metering (multi point). You should see the histogram is all bunched up in the middle which means the subject is very flat (lacking contrast). Take a photo.
Now adjust the settings (aperture/shutter/exposure compo) so the histogram is moves to the right as far as you are game and take another photo. That second file will be your cleanest file as far as noise goes; BUT

Yep; there are always buts in the real world of photography. As we move the histogram right we will be dropping the shutter speed. Not a drama while pointing the camera at the sky; however we need to watch we don't drop the shutter speed too low when photographing something darker or in darker light and we will then need to consider a tripod or higher iso. Easy to get caught if we are not thinking

And a good point I have noticed with the Oly em1 is the ESP metering is so hellishing damn accurate . I very seldom use anything but ESP. Unlike a DSLR the OLYs have a live histogram in the viewfinder so we just need to move that histogram to suit the subject. So easy!!

Learn to see where the subject is causing minor h/light clipping. Small spots like a bit of very light/white cloud inside the main cloud can often be fixed PP with cloning/healing. Or make two exposures so you can blend the files in PS; sounds spooky but a simple bit of part blending isn't hard once understood and that could be the difference between a good photo and a great photo.

When editing in lr I always have the clippings showing as red (HL) and blue (Blacks) on the screen. These days I watch the LR histogram more than the image when getting the exposure/blacks/whites correct.
An excellent post, Ian.
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  #24  
Old 19th November 2015
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Re: Expose to the Right of the Histogram!

All we need now is a new exposure compensation mode that records the compensation applied in the RAW file and then subtracts it when producing the JPEG, thus giving you the extra detail that is now recorded in the image but at the correct (metered) brightness.
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Old 19th November 2015
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Re: Expose to the Right of the Histogram!

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Originally Posted by OM USer View Post
All we need now is a new exposure compensation mode that records the compensation applied in the RAW file and then subtracts it when producing the JPEG, thus giving you the extra detail that is now recorded in the image but at the correct (metered) brightness.
there is available. It's called TPM (The Photographer Mode)
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  #26  
Old 19th November 2015
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Re: Expose to the Right of the Histogram!

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An excellent post, Ian.
It took a while for my slow mind to appreciate that comment John, nice one
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Re: Expose to the Right of the Histogram!

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It took a while for my slow mind to appreciate that comment John, nice one
You are actually ahead of me, Iain. Thanks to you I've only just realised how clever my comment was - without even trying!
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Old 19th November 2015
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Re: Expose to the Right of the Histogram!

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Originally Posted by Zuiko View Post
An excellent post, Ian.
Quote:
Originally Posted by IainMacD View Post
It took a while for my slow mind to appreciate that comment John, nice one
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zuiko View Post
You are actually ahead of me, Iain. Thanks to you I've only just realised how clever my comment was - without even trying!
Maybe the 'post' is just a reflection of those looking at it, aged & cracking up (I feel a bit that way at times).
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  #29  
Old 20th November 2015
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Re: Expose to the Right of the Histogram!

In my book ETTR has a limit, meaning 'blowing' high lights should be avoided, for when it's gone it's gone - without a degree of guessing using fancy algorithms based on green channel x2 etc.
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Old 20th November 2015
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Re: Expose to the Right of the Histogram!

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In my book ETTR has a limit, meaning 'blowing' high lights should be avoided, for when it's gone it's gone - without a degree of guessing using fancy algorithms based on green channel x2 etc.
Not in my case on an occasion with the Oly 60mm macro lens attached to my E-M5 it was an on the spur of the moment shot without enough pre-thought going into it as I was taking some macro shots around the garden at the time so I hadn't noticed I had blown the highlights (nor noticed that only one of the dogs eyes were actually in focus). I've shown this one before, but here is the original with blown highlights in the JPEG output.



This is the same photo edited from the raw file in Capture One (OV3 couldn't recover the blown highlights anything like this).


I wouldn't deliberately take the exposure to the right as much as this but just thankful I was able to recover the highlights in this photo since Jake on the left is no longer with us & this is one of the photo opportunities that may not happen every day (or again in this case).
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Flashes: FL36R X2, FL50R, FL50.
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