Olympus UK E-System User Group
Olympus UK E-System User Group

Join our unique resource for Olympus Four Thirds E-System DSLR and Pen and OM-D Micro Four Thirds photographers. Show your images via our free e-group photo gallery. Please read the e-group.uk.net forum terms and conditions before posting for the first time. Above all, welcome!


Go Back   Olympus UK E-System User Group > Out of Focus area > The lounge

The lounge Relax, take a break from photo and camera talk - have a chat about something else for a change. Just keep it clean and polite!

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 21st December 2015
alfbranch's Avatar
alfbranch alfbranch is offline
Full member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Whitehaven Cumbria
Posts: 6,775
Thanks: 1,591
Thanked 803 Times in 762 Posts
Likes: 1,195
Liked 2,724 Times in 938 Posts
Photography students using film cameras

I found this comment

Quote:
Originally Posted by pdk42 View Post
PS - as an aside I really can't see the point in forcing photography students to use film cameras. What's the point? Sure, film can be fun and it has a look that digital is hard to emulate, but really - photography should be about the artistry and final result shouldn't it? HCB didn't use 4x5 plate cameras - he used the best technology of the day!
On this thread http://e-group.uk.net/forum/showthre...ewpost&t=40563

So what is your take on teaching photography students to use film today?
__________________
OMD E-M1 OMD E-M5II MMF3 12-40 pro 12-50 EZ 14-42 EZ 9-18 f4.0 -5.6 40 -150f4-f5.6 R 60mm f2.8 macro Sigma 105 f2.8 macro Holga 60mm plastic Holga pinhole lens lens and a XZ-1 Olympus - 35 SP Trip 35 Pen EEs OM2sp

I nice view does not mean a good photograph. My FLickr

Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 21st December 2015
pdk42's Avatar
pdk42 pdk42 is offline
Full member
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Leamington Spa
Posts: 5,710
Thanks: 370
Thanked 1,257 Times in 942 Posts
Likes: 150
Liked 5,995 Times in 1,953 Posts
Re: Photography students using film cameras

Well, since it's my comment I guess you already have my view. However, I'll go a step further - I'm somewhat skeptical of photography courses at all. I'm guessing most of us learned the art from enthusiasm and practice rather than formal tuition; and TBH I'm really struggling how you can possibly fill an entire "degree" course on the subject. My guess is that the film throwback is partly an attempt to fill the space. Maybe I'm just old fashioned and elitist, but for me a degree is academic not vocational.

And whilst I'm in a Victor Meldrum mood, I'll just add that planning a business in photography these days is a pretty bold move, especially if it involves paying tens of thousands in tuition before you even get a job!
__________________
Paul
E-M1ii, Pen-F and too many lenses
flickr
Portfolio Site
Instagram
Reply With Quote
The Following User Liked This Post:
Kiwi Paul (22nd December 2015)
  #3  
Old 21st December 2015
alfbranch's Avatar
alfbranch alfbranch is offline
Full member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Whitehaven Cumbria
Posts: 6,775
Thanks: 1,591
Thanked 803 Times in 762 Posts
Likes: 1,195
Liked 2,724 Times in 938 Posts
Re: Photography students using film cameras

Well Paul film is the medium photopraphy has used the majority of the time digital is a late comer.

There is a lot to be learned from using film and there are so many wys of shooting and using that I have not tried.

The most recent camera I bought was an Olympus OM2SP which had a part shot roll from my OM2 in it within mitues of aquiring it.
__________________
OMD E-M1 OMD E-M5II MMF3 12-40 pro 12-50 EZ 14-42 EZ 9-18 f4.0 -5.6 40 -150f4-f5.6 R 60mm f2.8 macro Sigma 105 f2.8 macro Holga 60mm plastic Holga pinhole lens lens and a XZ-1 Olympus - 35 SP Trip 35 Pen EEs OM2sp

I nice view does not mean a good photograph. My FLickr

Reply With Quote
The Following Users Liked This Post:
Lee (21st December 2015), Simon Bee (22nd December 2015)
  #4  
Old 21st December 2015
OM USer's Avatar
OM USer OM USer is offline
Full member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: London
Posts: 11,998
Thanks: 2,361
Thanked 1,492 Times in 1,420 Posts
Likes: 6,150
Liked 1,405 Times in 896 Posts
Re: Photography students using film cameras

I think its fair game to see how hard you can push film and still get a picture from it. Some of the darkroom skills are great fun.
__________________
Cameras: E-M5, E-PM2, OM40, OM4Ti
Lenses (M.Zuiko Digital): 7-14mm/F2.8, 12-40mm/F2.8, 40-150mm/F2.8+TC1.4x, 12-50mm/F3.5-6.3, 14-42mm/F3.5-5.6 EZ, M.ZD 40-150 F4-5.6 R, 75-300mm/F4.8-6.7 Mk1, 12mm/F2, 17mm/F1.8
Lenses (OM Zuiko): 50mm/F1.2, 24mm/F2, 35mm/F2.8 shift
Lenses (OM Fit): Vivitar Series II 28-105mm/F2.8-3.8, Sigma 21-35mm/F3.4-4.2, Sigma 35-70mm/F2.8-4, Sigma 75-200mm/F2.8-3.5, Vivitar Series II 100-500mm/F5.6-8.0, Centon 500mm/F8 Mirror
Learn something new every day
Reply With Quote
The Following Users Liked This Post:
alfbranch (21st December 2015), Simon Bee (22nd December 2015)
  #5  
Old 21st December 2015
Naughty Nigel's Avatar
Naughty Nigel Naughty Nigel is offline
Full member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Land of the Prince Bishops
Posts: 9,514
Thanks: 384
Thanked 546 Times in 461 Posts
Likes: 3,298
Liked 2,269 Times in 1,499 Posts
Re: Photography students using film cameras

Quote:
Originally Posted by pdk42 View Post
Well, since it's my comment I guess you already have my view. However, I'll go a step further - I'm somewhat skeptical of photography courses at all. I'm guessing most of us learned the art from enthusiasm and practice rather than formal tuition; and TBH I'm really struggling how you can possibly fill an entire "degree" course on the subject. My guess is that the film throwback is partly an attempt to fill the space. Maybe I'm just old fashioned and elitist, but for me a degree is academic not vocational.

And whilst I'm in a Victor Meldrum mood, I'll just add that planning a business in photography these days is a pretty bold move, especially if it involves paying tens of thousands in tuition before you even get a job!
I have to say I don't entirely disagree with you, but then Tony Blair decreed that everyone should have a degree, so degree courses have been invented to cater for almost everyone; including it seems, those who want to study sport and leisure.

Our son studied music at a music college in Manchester, which may be another degree course that you feel is worthless?

Did any of the Beatles have music degrees?

Do you need a degree to perform music with feeling?

Whatever our views on this matter a music degree is now 'expected' in certain professions, whereas at one time good old fashioned experience and fellowship of a relevant college (such as FRCO) was deemed sufficient.

He had expected to spend four years learning to perfect music making on his chosen instrument, but actually spent most of his time doing contextual studies, musical genres, historical studies and singing in the college choir.

Moving on, he is now studying photography at Sunderland, and all of his work so far has involved B&W film photography; initially using 5 x 4 cameras but now progressing to 6 x7 and 6 x 6 depending on which cameras are available.

I think the idea is to teach the basics of photography and what is possible with traditional methods and materials before moving on to digital. Whether or not we consider analogue photography to be relevant it forms a big slice of the course.

This kind of makes sense to me, but many of the students are already working at a far more advanced stage, so it doesn't seem to be the best use of time.

However, what really surprises me is that filters have not yet been mentioned. I have always believed that filters were an essential part of B&W photography, helping to emphasise selected textures and contrast in what we see through the viewfinder, or perhaps improving skin texture in portraiture, but it seems this is a lost art, or is perhaps not considered important.

Nevertheless, it is a very enjoyable course, and helps give students with a talent for photography an opportunity to study and experiment with other genres that they might not otherwise experience.
__________________
---------------

Naughty Nigel


Difficult is worth doing
Reply With Quote
The Following Users Liked This Post:
alfbranch (21st December 2015), Kiwi Paul (22nd December 2015), Simon Bee (22nd December 2015)
  #6  
Old 21st December 2015
Internaut Internaut is offline
Full member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Manchester
Posts: 2,986
Thanks: 329
Thanked 314 Times in 293 Posts
Likes: 1,582
Liked 686 Times in 296 Posts
Re: Photography students using film cameras

I'm in two minds about film as a medium for teaching. On the one hand, it teaches the student to be discerning, economical, and make each shot count. On the other hand, there's little room for experimentation, compared to a 16Gb memory card, when you factor in the finite number of shots per roll, the cost of the film and development costs.

As for the value of training and education, isn't photography usually part of a broader arts or media degree? I know a few people who've taken an OU module and, looking back, it was good for them, concentrating on the basics (taking photos in good light, getting a good OOC JPEG, using the histogram and levels sliders to get the contrast just right). Thorny little issues of exposure optimisation, the photographer as the developer vs the camera as the developer, Photoshop and so on were left for others to deal with.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 21st December 2015
pdk42's Avatar
pdk42 pdk42 is offline
Full member
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Leamington Spa
Posts: 5,710
Thanks: 370
Thanked 1,257 Times in 942 Posts
Likes: 150
Liked 5,995 Times in 1,953 Posts
Re: Photography students using film cameras

Quote:
Originally Posted by Naughty Nigel View Post
I have to say I don't entirely disagree with you, but then Tony Blair decreed that everyone should have a degree, so degree courses have been invented to cater for almost everyone; including it seems, those who want to study sport and leisure.
I think this is a real problem with our education system today. I sat next to a nice German lady on the plane when returning from Cape Town last week. We ended up talking a lot and it transpired that she is a top HR Director for a big UK company with offices in SA. She has lived in England for over ten years and knows the UK and German education systems well. She said that the German system was far, far better in vocational training and worked by directing the 90% of the population that are not academic into non-degree training.

The UK by contrast has perverted the University education system into a smoke-screen for hiding high youth unemployment. It works only by offering second-rate degrees (by the bucket-load) that are neither academic nor particularly useful for vocational training. Instead, they are wasting years of young people's lives and tens of thousands of pounds of their future earnings on qualifications that are nearly worthless. And it's not even restricted to the obvious pointless subjects like Media Studies. In my own field, computer software, I see countless candidates with Computer Science degrees that have clearly been taught by people who have never worked in the industry and do not understand what commercial software development is about.

Meanwhile, the funding basis for Universities means that cheap-to-teach courses are crowding out the harder subjects, such as the sciences, since the Deans and Bursars have realised that they can teach hundreds of Media Studies students at 9k/yr a head with very little resources whilst labs and decent scientists run expensive.

The result is that we've got a huge surge in student debt, government debt (do a google for UK student debt) and pointless degrees whilst the UK as a whole is suffering a massive skills shortage!

If you don't want to do the googling, the graph below is an official graph of government debt due to student loans. It's now over 60bn and rising almost exponentially:

__________________
Paul
E-M1ii, Pen-F and too many lenses
flickr
Portfolio Site
Instagram
Reply With Quote
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to pdk42 For This Useful Post:
Jim Ford (22nd December 2015), Naughty Nigel (22nd December 2015), Simon Bee (22nd December 2015), Zuiko (22nd December 2015)
The Following Users Liked This Post:
Kiwi Paul (22nd December 2015), Naughty Nigel (22nd December 2015), OM USer (22nd December 2015), peak4 (22nd December 2015), Simon Bee (22nd December 2015)
  #8  
Old 21st December 2015
Graham_of_Rainham's Avatar
Graham_of_Rainham Graham_of_Rainham is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Rainham
Posts: 8,099
Thanks: 642
Thanked 939 Times in 727 Posts
Likes: 2,260
Liked 1,579 Times in 910 Posts
Re: Photography students using film cameras

Film has gone the same way as videotape and audio cassette tape, for most people.

However there are a lot still using it and even the new Star Wars was filmed using 35 and 70 mm film. Sound studios still use reel to reel tape (albeit a lot bigger than my 1/4" one)

I still find myself only shooting a 100 or so frames, which was my old 3 roll rule of old.

What I do find annoying is the way a lot of "educators" are dismissive of clubs, claiming they are to "traditional" and hamper creativity...
__________________
Graham

We often repeat the mistakes we most enjoy...
Reply With Quote
The Following User Liked This Post:
Simon Bee (22nd December 2015)
  #9  
Old 21st December 2015
Imageryone Imageryone is offline
Full member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Suffolk,England
Posts: 4,934
Thanks: 1,101
Thanked 797 Times in 755 Posts
Likes: 656
Liked 564 Times in 336 Posts
Re: Photography students using film cameras

Surely without understanding the history of any hobby, full enjoyment is curtailed ? And film is a much greater part of that history than digital.

Most of my early film experience came from Evening Classes and Clubs, but most of all from fellow enthusiasts, who all saw the same thing as I did completely differently.

I still like to load up my 6x6 TTL for a day, just to remind me of the discIpline of only 12 exposures.

On digital I restrict myself to 4GB cards in all cameras, and I have never filled one of those on a single shoot.
__________________
The picture tells the story, great when you have a bad memory.DW.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Liked This Post:
Simon Bee (22nd December 2015)
  #10  
Old 22nd December 2015
Ricoh Ricoh is offline
Full member
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Lancashire
Posts: 5,792
Thanks: 592
Thanked 421 Times in 373 Posts
Likes: 787
Liked 1,919 Times in 1,143 Posts
Re: Photography students using film cameras

Degree courses are a form of brain training to provide, in part, proficiency at self learning. It comes as a shock to go from a school / 6th form environment to survive on guided reading, hence the term reading for a degree. Anyone gaining this self sufficiency is well placed, in my view, for a rapidly changing work-place requiring developmental skills of its employees. So clearly I'm a supporter of higher education.

Regarding film having relevance in the digital era, well it simplifies and concentrates the mind on the essentials, rather than wasting time teaching students what main cog sub menu J does on one camera brand, and what spanner menu A does on another. With film cameras the technical issues are unified, irrespective of camera make, allowing all the students to concentrate on the core essentials.
__________________
Steve

on flickr
Reply With Quote
The Following Users Liked This Post:
Imageryone (22nd December 2015), Simon Bee (22nd December 2015)
  #11  
Old 22nd December 2015
Zuiko's Avatar
Zuiko Zuiko is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Dunmow, Essex
Posts: 22,042
Thanks: 1,981
Thanked 3,144 Times in 2,453 Posts
Likes: 3,378
Liked 4,451 Times in 2,113 Posts
Re: Photography students using film cameras

Just to give an example of what university degree courses can offer, here are details of the course to which Freya aspires:-

http://www.falmouth.ac.uk/fashionphotography

Here is an extract, summarising Year 1 of the course:-

During year one you'll explore the analytical, creative and technical potential of fashion photography, both in the studio and on location. A series of editorial and advertising project briefs and accompanying lectures and workshops encourage you to understand the expressive and dynamic nature of fashion image-making. You'll be encouraged to explore your personal identity as a practitioner through investigating how personal practice relates to a broader arena of art and design.

◦Opportunity to attend a study trip during London Fashion Week and collaborate with BA(Hons) students from Fashion Design, Performance Sportswear Design and Fashion Marketing

◦Opportunity to engage with industry professionals to interview and photograph your fashion photography hero. Previously, students have interviewed: Tim Walker, Rankin, Nick Knight, David Bailey, Mary Katrantzou and Savannah Miller

◦Opportunity to create a Zine in a day with Clive Crook, the Founding Art Director of ELLE magazine, UK

◦Professional studio working

◦Working on location

◦Post-production: High-end retouching and compositing techniques (Photoshop)

◦Professional and business aspects of working as a fashion photographer

◦Histories and theories


I think the whole course has a very healthy emphasis on practical work, combining challenging projects with intensive instruction and access to well equipped studios. This should enable students to produce an impressive portfolio and offers a number of unique opportunities to attend major industry events and gain practical work placements.

Of course, in the old days you didn't need fancy degrees to get a job in photography, you just rocked up at photographer's studio, impressed him with your nave confidence, which was more a sign of what little rather than how much you knew, blagged your way around any questions about technical ability or experience and refused to accept "no" as an answer until your natural charm persuaded him to take a chance on you as his assistant.

Nowadays a formal qualification supported by a strong portfolio is essential to give you even a sporting chance of working within the industry and any contacts established during the course might just make it a little easier to squeeze through the crack in the door. But one thing at a time; Freya has got to really impress at A level to have any chance of going to Falmouth.
__________________
John

"A hundredth of a second here, a hundredth of a second there even if you put them end to end, they still only add up to one, two, perhaps three seconds, snatched from eternity." ~ Robert Doisneau
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Zuiko For This Useful Post:
Simon Bee (22nd December 2015)
The Following User Liked This Post:
Simon Bee (22nd December 2015)
  #12  
Old 22nd December 2015
Phill D's Avatar
Phill D Phill D is offline
Full member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Derbyshire
Posts: 9,784
Thanks: 1,177
Thanked 1,402 Times in 1,294 Posts
Likes: 1,021
Liked 2,334 Times in 1,108 Posts
Re: Photography students using film cameras

John we looked at Falmouth when my daughter was looking at Universities and it did look very impressive. She decided in the end to stay a bit closer to home and do a slightly different degree but I'd have been more than happy if she'd have chosen Falmouth from what I read. If I remember correctly I think Roger Harrison's (Carridus) daughter recently graduated from Falmouth.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Liked This Post:
Zuiko (22nd December 2015)
  #13  
Old 22nd December 2015
Kiwi Paul
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Photography students using film cameras

Quote:
Originally Posted by Internaut View Post
I'm in two minds about film as a medium for teaching. On the one hand, it teaches the student to be discerning, economical, and make each shot count. On the other hand, there's little room for experimentation, compared to a 16Gb memory card, when you factor in the finite number of shots per roll, the cost of the film and development costs
Two good points there, bought up using film makes you think before you take a shot as with only 36 shots per roll economics definitely plays a part and even to this day with virtually unlimited shots available in digital format I still tend to keep my shots to a minimum, trying to get it right first time.

But on the other hand the digital medium allows you instant feedback so you can instantly see where you have gone wrong and correct it in situ, a good way to learn. But with digital it would be easy to fire off any number of shots hoping one will be good, (monkey typewriter syndrome) which I don't think is good for improving photography skills.

Paul
Reply With Quote
The Following User Liked This Post:
Simon Bee (22nd December 2015)
  #14  
Old 22nd December 2015
Zuiko's Avatar
Zuiko Zuiko is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Dunmow, Essex
Posts: 22,042
Thanks: 1,981
Thanked 3,144 Times in 2,453 Posts
Likes: 3,378
Liked 4,451 Times in 2,113 Posts
Re: Photography students using film cameras

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiwi Paul View Post

But on the other hand the digital medium allows you instant feedback so you can instantly see where you have gone wrong and correct it in situ, a good way to learn. But with digital it would be easy to fire off any number of shots hoping one will be good, (monkey typewriter syndrome) which I don't think is good for improving photography skills.

Paul
Back in the day I had a dear friend (he died far too young) who was also a very talented and successful pro. From time to time people would say, "I'd like a print of that shot, Dennis, if it comes out," to which he would reply, "Come out? Of course it's ****** going to come out!"
__________________
John

"A hundredth of a second here, a hundredth of a second there even if you put them end to end, they still only add up to one, two, perhaps three seconds, snatched from eternity." ~ Robert Doisneau
Reply With Quote
The Following Users Liked This Post:
Imageryone (22nd December 2015), OM USer (22nd December 2015), Simon Bee (22nd December 2015)
  #15  
Old 22nd December 2015
Naughty Nigel's Avatar
Naughty Nigel Naughty Nigel is offline
Full member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Land of the Prince Bishops
Posts: 9,514
Thanks: 384
Thanked 546 Times in 461 Posts
Likes: 3,298
Liked 2,269 Times in 1,499 Posts
Re: Photography students using film cameras

Quote:
Originally Posted by pdk42 View Post
I think this is a real problem with our education system today........

............ The result is that we've got a huge surge in student debt, government debt (do a google for UK student debt) and pointless degrees whilst the UK as a whole is suffering a massive skills shortage!
I think you are spot on with your analysis.

The Germans certainly do much better than the UK with vocational training, but the Poles in particular seem to have equipped their young people with both the skills, and more to the point, the attitudes needed in today's workplace.

Sadly far too many Brits are afraid to get their hands dirty.
__________________
---------------

Naughty Nigel


Difficult is worth doing
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
WD Store for students TubaMagna8 E-System User Group goodies 8 3rd December 2017 09:50 PM
My film cameras alfbranch Nostalgia Nexus - early and pre-digital discussion 63 11th May 2014 09:04 PM
Photos with film cameras (a lot, sorry...) cariadus Nostalgia Nexus - early and pre-digital discussion 7 16th January 2014 11:47 AM
Oxford Students gwpics Foto Fair 1 8th July 2011 05:35 PM
OM film cameras for sale Xpres For sale or wanted small ads 6 7th November 2008 03:42 PM


All times are GMT. The time now is 02:03 AM.


The Write Technology Ltd, 2007-2019, All rights reservedAd Management plugin by RedTyger