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Old 4th July 2015
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Graham_of_Rainham Graham_of_Rainham is offline
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Business Economics

Maths, I'm ok with. On a good day I kinda get accountancy...

How on earth is a replacement Doorbell Push 12 + P&P, when they sell the whole kit for 13 inc P&P
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Old 4th July 2015
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Re: Business Economics

Its like when you buy a "package" holiday, when you try to change an individual component it ends up costing more,
Like a clutch kit for a car, the lot will cost you a ton but individually its about 140 ?
they are trying to encourage you to buy the lot even though you may not need it .
ALL THE LOT is so much, individually its more,
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Old 4th July 2015
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Re: Business Economics

Less variations mean less part numbers to stock and ship. Indicates that the individual parts are relatively cheap
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Old 4th July 2015
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Re: Business Economics

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Originally Posted by Graham_of_Rainham View Post
Maths, I'm ok with. On a good day I kinda get accountancy...

How on earth is a replacement Doorbell Push 12 + P&P, when they sell the whole kit for 13 inc P&P
It's all about SKU's (Stock Keeping Units).

Irrespective of factory gate cost, the cost of packaging, shipping and selling any one SKU from the same factory is much the same, and takes just as much effort, so it costs almost as much to buy one item as the complete kit.

If you look around any shop you will see that many individual packages have the same price, irrespective of their value.
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Old 5th July 2015
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Re: Business Economics

What does annoy me is when Tesco has a special offer on individual tins of sweetcorn (for example), which makes it cheaper to buy 4 separate tins than a pack of 4.
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Old 5th July 2015
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Re: Business Economics

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What does annoy me is when Tesco has a special offer on individual tins of sweetcorn (for example), which makes it cheaper to buy 4 separate tins than a pack of 4.
ALLWAYS look for that! Today two 250g tubs of flora are 0.59 cheaper than one 500g. I like when it works in our favor, but often it's all about them...


My 1TB USB 3.0 External Drive failed last week.

A replacement of the actual 1TB HDD is 54. A new 2TB USB 3.0 unit with power supply and lead is 59.95 inc P&P...

Hopefully it will arrive on Monday.
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Old 6th July 2015
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Re: Business Economics

Don't talk to me about HDDs!! We have two Panasonic HHD/DVD TV recorders. The first, older one, failed after about three years. Guess what? The HDD is fine. But the firmware - which is updated, no, "updated", from time to time - is totally screwed up. We bought a newer Panasonic one with a four times as big HDD.

All went well for a time, then it started to play up, too. Now it's just over 12 months old, and it is a PAIN! Turn it on, select Guide, and it promptly says "The unit will now go into self test and then turn off" Ten minutes later, it's turned off, so try again. Chances are the same happens again. So we miss the starting ten minutes or more of the programme we want to record. One time it recorded precisely one hour of.....blank disc. Another time, it's recorded fine....without sound. After our holiday last month, it couldn't find the guide at all. It seems to be back to normal again now.........for now.

It's been back whence we bought it. They say there is no problem.

I've had this before with a similar device of different make. If the software fails, you have no redress; the shop hides behind the requirement of consumer law that the purchaser must be able to prove it's faulty. How do you prove the firmware is faulty? Perhaps more to the point, why do we have to accept the firmware being updated, when it's already performing OK, and thereby risk it not being OK?

The manufacturers get around the law by the old dodge - the software is merely licensed to the purchaser, so when it screws up, the purchaser can get lost.

Ain't consumer law just WONDERFUL? We can buy all sorts of hardware now with the functionality defined by its software/firmware.....and if the makers mess up the software for us after we've bought it, all those wonderful bells and whistles that we bought have probably added to its chances of failure. And the law gives us no protection whatsoever.
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Old 6th July 2015
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Re: Business Economics

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If the software fails,
Surely it's firmware.

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you have no redress; the shop hides behind the requirement of consumer law that the purchaser must be able to prove it's faulty. How do you prove the firmware is faulty?
I'm not a lawyer, but:

If you can demonstrate that the unit is nor working as advertised, you don't need to provide an underlying reason - all you have to show is that it just doesn't work properly.

The fact that the firmware may be supplied by a third party is irrelevant. If you buy a new car and a tyre is faulty it's up to the company selling you the car to rectify it - you don't need to go to (say) Dunlop.

Jim
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Old 6th July 2015
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Re: Business Economics

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Surely it's firmware.



I'm not a lawyer, but:

If you can demonstrate that the unit is nor working as advertised, you don't need to provide an underlying reason - all you have to show is that it just doesn't work properly.

The fact that the firmware may be supplied by a third party is irrelevant. If you buy a new car and a tyre is faulty it's up to the company selling you the car to rectify it - you don't need to go to (say) Dunlop.

Jim
Whether described as software or firmware, and I pursued this at the time with TSO, it is only licensed to the customer, so falls outside the provisions of consumer law! It's a good get-out. Doesn't matter whether it's third party or manufacturer written, if it's supplied under a licence, the same rule applies.
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Old 6th July 2015
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Re: Business Economics

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Originally Posted by KeithL View Post
Whether described as software or firmware, and I pursued this at the time with TSO, it is only licensed to the customer, so falls outside the provisions of consumer law! It's a good get-out. Doesn't matter whether it's third party or manufacturer written, if it's supplied under a licence, the same rule applies.
I doubt if a Judge would see it that way.

Irrespective of the letter of the Law, a County Court Judge would consider the 'reasonable expectations' of the consumer, having regard to the amount paid.

Having said that, the supplier (or manufacturer) would probably appeal at a higher court as there would be a lot at stake for them.
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Re: Business Economics

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Originally Posted by KeithL View Post
Whether described as software or firmware, and I pursued this at the time with TSO, it is only licensed to the customer, so falls outside the provisions of consumer law! It's a good get-out. Doesn't matter whether it's third party or manufacturer written, if it's supplied under a licence, the same rule applies.
Hmm. So what you're suggesting is that if a computer does not work at all because the third party supplied BIOS firmware is faulty, you have no case against the supplier of the computer?

Jim
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Old 6th July 2015
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Re: Business Economics

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Originally Posted by Jim Ford View Post
Hmm. So what you're suggesting is that if a product (say a DVD recorder) doesn't work at all; if it's the fault of the firmware which was supplied by a third party, you have no case?

Jim
I suspect this could well fall foul of the Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977.

There is, after all, a reasonable expectation that a machine costing several hundred pounds will have a service life greater than the warranty period.

The warranty terms themselves are usually meaningless in Law, and almost impossible for manufacturers to enforce if it can be shown that they have acted unreasonably.
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Old 7th July 2015
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Re: Business Economics

You'd think so, but just have a look at a Windows EULA for instance. The problem with e.g. DVD/HDD recorders is that the damn things are updated every so often. Each one that I've bought has worked perfectly when bought; it's only been after several updates that things started to go awry. Generally, software licences (for which read firmware licences too) don't guarantee anything; they just say that it'll work 'substantially as intended'; in the case of my DVD/HDD recorder, it still works; but when it decides to go into self test mode, it could be said to be working 'substantially as intended' even though it seriously impacts the effectiveness with which it records a programme.

As you say, a judge might well not see it that way; but who amongst us has the dosh to indulge in an expensive court case for the sake of a 300 DVD/HDD recorder?

And just consider another issue! What if the problem were due to EMI coming down the mains? How could the consumer prove that? You could argue that the unit should be resistant to EMI; but that 'resistance' is often only created in software, and (a) that method can be dodgy, (b) software can be corrupted due to EMI. The consumer could not possibly prove the case; a good EMI lab could, but that would cost a fortune. And, again, who amongst us has the dosh to indulge in costly lab tests for a 300 DVD/HDD recorder?
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Old 7th July 2015
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Re: Business Economics

Commented on Nigel's post about 'special offers', Which magazine is running a campaign about them. It cited a case of "Special Offer - 2 for £4" on an item costing £2 per unit. And also, IIRC, a case of "Special Offer - 2 for £3" on an item that cost, I think it was £1.20 each. Reminds me of a billboard outside a pub: "Buy one and get a second for the same price!"
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Old 7th July 2015
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Re: Business Economics

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Originally Posted by KeithL View Post
As you say, a judge might well not see it that way; but who amongst us has the dosh to indulge in an expensive court case for the sake of a £300 DVD/HDD recorder?
County Court claim for <£300 fees £25. Send letter before action. The cost of defending the claim would be such as to make it unlikely the supplier would do so. Be clear that your contract is with the Seller although if you have guarantee from the manufacturer you may have additional rights.

A free guarantee for goods, including goods supplied with a service, is legally binding on the person offering the guarantee if the goods were bought on or after 31 March 2003. Guarantees for goods are usually provided by the manufacturer and give you extra rights in addition to the rights you already have against the seller.

I would not shrug my shoulders and walk away.
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