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  #16  
Old 31st July 2018
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Re: A Monochrom(e) Oly?

Yes, I have the Huawei P20 Pro smartphone and this has a mono 20 megapixel camera to enhance the main 40 megapixel camera (plus a third 8 megapixel telephoto )

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Quote:
Originally Posted by pdk42 View Post
Short of a Leica Monochrome, I think the closest you'll get with digital to pure mono is the Sigma Quattro. It has an additional mono only layer plus the other Fovean layering for colour.

Then there are some recent camera phones that have multiple sensors & lenses, at least one camera having one of these sensors as mono only.
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  #17  
Old 31st July 2018
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Re: A Monochrom(e) Oly?

Absolutely; I used to love printing on Agfa Portriga Rapid because it gave a detectably warmer tone than Brovira or or the more common Kodak and Ilford papers. I also felt Tri-X was more contrasty than HP 4 or HP5. But that could also be a function of the combination of film and one's choice of developer of course.

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This feels slightly surreal as I am viewing them all on a colour monitor which will be different from the next.

When I was at Art School and shot and processed in Black and White you could see the subtle differences in film, paper and skill and expertise (especially the lack of these in my work but there were some great photographers there). But if that were scanned and output on a colour device then those subtleties would have gone.
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Old 31st July 2018
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Re: A Monochrom(e) Oly?

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Film is king however due to the non linear transfer function, approaching an S shape. Unless crack-handed it's difficult to blow the highlights and the DR is phenomenal of course.
I don't think it's true to say that film DR exceeds digital. This rather long and technical article by Roger Clark clearly shows that digital DR is significantly better than both slide and negative film:

http://www.clarkvision.com/articles/...#dynamic_range

The graph below is his summary of effective IQ of various cameras compared to various types of film:

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  #19  
Old 31st July 2018
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Re: A Monochrom(e) Oly?

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I have tried a Leica Monochrom 246 briefly, but I didn't really know what I was doing and only had the camera for a few minutes. The few shots I took were recorded as JPEGs, not RAW - though of course, are RAWs so important with purely mono data?

Without wanting to be self-congratulatory, I'm particularly pleased with my shot in this thread taken of a provincial Thai elder. It was taken using an E-M1 (Mark 1) fitted with a Leica Nocticron 42.5mm f/1.2 shot at f/1.2.

I think the mono conversion works really well. What I really would like to know is how the Leica Monochrom would differ given this scenario and provided with an appropriately similar lens.

Ian
It is an excellent image Ian. I sincerely doubt its impact could be improved by it being shot on film, or a Leica Monochrome. Excellent images transcend the capturing device.
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  #20  
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Re: A Monochrom(e) Oly?

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Originally Posted by pdk42 View Post
I don't think it's true to say that film DR exceeds digital. This rather long and technical article by Roger Clark clearly shows that digital DR is significantly better than both slide and negative film:

http://www.clarkvision.com/articles/...#dynamic_range

The graph below is his summary of effective IQ of various cameras compared to various types of film:

Unfortunately, there is a copyright message instead of a photo

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  #21  
Old 31st July 2018
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Re: A Monochrom(e) Oly?

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It is an excellent image Ian. I sincerely doubt its impact could be improved by it being shot on film, or a Leica Monochrome. Excellent images transcend the capturing device.
I like that point of view: "Excellent images transcend the capturing device."

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Re: A Monochrom(e) Oly?

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Unfortunately, there is a copyright message instead of a photo

Ian
Hers the url:

http://www.clarkvision.com/articles/...iq.clark.a.gif
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  #23  
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Re: A Monochrom(e) Oly?

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Sorry - still showing only a copyright message.

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  #24  
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Re: A Monochrom(e) Oly?

OK - just tried MS Edge instead of Firefox and the graphic is visible - how strange!

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Old 1st August 2018
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Re: A Monochrom(e) Oly?

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All I can see is a copyright notice.
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Old 1st August 2018
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Re: A Monochrom(e) Oly?

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OK - just tried MS Edge instead of Firefox and the graphic is visible - how strange! Ian

Even stranger - the first time I looked in Firefox, I got the copyright message while, when I returned later, I got the image.



Roger Clark makes it clear on his website that he likes to be asked before his material is used. He has put a great deal of work into collecting loads of useful information about the performance of digital sensors.
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  #27  
Old 1st August 2018
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Re: A Monochrom(e) Oly?

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Even stranger - the first time I looked in Firefox, I got the copyright message while, when I returned later, I got the image.



Roger Clark makes it clear on his website that he likes to be asked before his material is used. He has put a great deal of work into collecting loads of useful information about the performance of digital sensors.
Clearly there is a browser-specific issue as even when I visited his website using Firefox I couldn't see the chart in question, but no problems with it using Edge, even here in this thread.

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Old 1st August 2018
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Re: A Monochrom(e) Oly?

To go back to Ian's original question, I think there are two reasons why we might want to use a mono-only camera - the technical and the mental.

We have already talked about most of the technical aspects, but there is at least one more that is important for shooting in low light. If you have a conventional Bayer matrix sensor, the colour filters throw away approximately half the light, so taking the filter away gives an immediate one stop increase in high ISO performance. This was very important to me a few years ago when high ISO performance of the Olys was not as good as it is now.

The mental side of it is arguably much more important. I can't speak for Ricoh but I suspect he will agree with me - if I am using a camera that will only give monochrome images, I compose and create the photos differently from how I would in colour. Even knowing - with the "thinking" part of the brain - that I can convert later to B&W doesn't really help, the "feeling" part of the brain continues to exert its influence. For this reason I sometimes used to take a 35mm compact loaded with B&W film on holiday, as well as a digital compact which would do the happy snaps.

I used a Monochrom a lot for gig photography in pre E-M1 days and loved it. The E-M1 brought such good high ISO performance that I have been rather lazy and pretty much switched to using it. A lot of people seem to prefer colour images anyway, although I think that for this application you can make either work well. I've tried doing mono conversions but never got any I was really pleased with, even from the E-M1 Mk II. Which may be down to my lack of skills in conversion, of course.

Here is an example from 2015 with the original Leica M Monochrom, pretty much pulled at random from the archives. We can't be sure without doing a controlled experiment but I really don't think the results would be as good from a converted RGB file.



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Re: A Monochrom(e) Oly?

The benefit of the Monochrome M246 compared to its colour cousin the M240 is improved ISO handling, with decreased noise when, and if, the shadows are lifted in post. The ULTRAsomething articles posted above explain and are worth reading.

B&W adds a level of abstraction and that's why I prefer it. Colour is too close to reality and reality can be fairly boring - right? Shooting in portarait adds a further element to the abstraction. We have binocular vision and see in landscape. Turning the camera through 90 provides us with an opportunity to see thimgs differently. A third abstraction is to see things as fragments, and not as totality such as everything in front of our eyes.
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Re: A Monochrom(e) Oly?

Great point regarding the sensor sensitivity/efficiency.

On the other hand, using a colour image as the base for a monochrome conversion, you can independently adjust the grey densities of the colours that those areas of the images are represented by - which seems to me to be a huge advantage. That's not possible with a mono sensor.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bikie John View Post
To go back to Ian's original question, I think there are two reasons why we might want to use a mono-only camera - the technical and the mental.

We have already talked about most of the technical aspects, but there is at least one more that is important for shooting in low light. If you have a conventional Bayer matrix sensor, the colour filters throw away approximately half the light, so taking the filter away gives an immediate one stop increase in high ISO performance. This was very important to me a few years ago when high ISO performance of the Olys was not as good as it is now.

The mental side of it is arguably much more important. I can't speak for Ricoh but I suspect he will agree with me - if I am using a camera that will only give monochrome images, I compose and create the photos differently from how I would in colour. Even knowing - with the "thinking" part of the brain - that I can convert later to B&W doesn't really help, the "feeling" part of the brain continues to exert its influence. For this reason I sometimes used to take a 35mm compact loaded with B&W film on holiday, as well as a digital compact which would do the happy snaps.

I used a Monochrom a lot for gig photography in pre E-M1 days and loved it. The E-M1 brought such good high ISO performance that I have been rather lazy and pretty much switched to using it. A lot of people seem to prefer colour images anyway, although I think that for this application you can make either work well. I've tried doing mono conversions but never got any I was really pleased with, even from the E-M1 Mk II. Which may be down to my lack of skills in conversion, of course.

Here is an example from 2015 with the original Leica M Monochrom, pretty much pulled at random from the archives. We can't be sure without doing a controlled experiment but I really don't think the results would be as good from a converted RGB file.



John
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