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Olympus OM-D E-M1 Mark II The second Micro Four Thirds camera that offers phase detect focusing so you can use Four Thirds DSLR lenses normally as well a Micro Four Thirds lenses.

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  #16  
Old 24th June 2017
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Re: AF Fine Adjustment on E-M1 Mk II

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Originally Posted by Johnheatingman View Post
Ross, this is all way beyond me too but then I still haven't got past "GO" on my new O-MD MK1 Stop "fiddling" with the new MK2 camera and take some more great photos like you usually do. You know you want to

Best regards,
John
Sorry, but I really need to get out as I don't have much else to add except one little pup that is keeping us busy (along with the three other dogs).



Not even the birds are around much.
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Flickr: https://www.flickr.com/photos/ross-the-fiddler/
Cameras: OM-D E-M1 & Mk II, Olympus Stylus 1, OM-D E-M5.
Lenses: M.ZD7-14mm f2.8 PRO Lens, M.ZD12-40mm f2.8 PRO Lens, M.ZD40-150mm f2.8 PRO Lens, MC-14, MC-20, M.ZD12-50, M.ZD60 Macro, M.ZD75-300 Mk II, MMF-3, ZD14-54 II, Sigma 150mm F2.8 APO Macro DG HSM.
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Old 25th June 2017
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Re: AF Fine Adjustment on E-M1 Mk II

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Originally Posted by Miketoll View Post
Me too Derek.

My interpretation of the reason is as follows:

PDAF works by calculating where focus SHOULD be, based on the out-of-phase appearance of the image to the focusing sensor, and instructing the lens to move to that focus setting. The camera never actual checks to see if the image IS in focus. Errors can occur because of mechanical tolerances in the lens itself, the lens mount, etc. In DLSRs, errors can also occur because of mechanical tolerances in the separate focusing sensor which is not on the image sensor, hence the greater need for focus adjustments.

CDAF, of the other hand, works by looking at the actual image and determining if it IS in focus. So by definition, there can never be any adjustment needed.

Clearly, Olympus wouldn't have provided the adjustment capability if it weren't useful.
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Old 25th June 2017
DanC.Licks DanC.Licks is offline
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Re: AF Fine Adjustment on E-M1 Mk II

Yes. I think you are right.
Olympus had to jump through a few hoops to get on-sensor PDAF to work at all. They have done well, all things considered.
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Old 25th June 2017
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Re: AF Fine Adjustment on E-M1 Mk II

In further testing today, I'm not sure if any adjustment will help the MFT lenses like the the 40-150 Pro lens with the MC14 combination. I would like to know for sure, one way or the other.
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Flickr: https://www.flickr.com/photos/ross-the-fiddler/
Cameras: OM-D E-M1 & Mk II, Olympus Stylus 1, OM-D E-M5.
Lenses: M.ZD7-14mm f2.8 PRO Lens, M.ZD12-40mm f2.8 PRO Lens, M.ZD40-150mm f2.8 PRO Lens, MC-14, MC-20, M.ZD12-50, M.ZD60 Macro, M.ZD75-300 Mk II, MMF-3, ZD14-54 II, Sigma 150mm F2.8 APO Macro DG HSM.
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Old 25th June 2017
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Re: AF Fine Adjustment on E-M1 Mk II

Don't blame you. It is not as if it were a cheap setup. It SHOULD work....
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Old 25th June 2017
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Re: AF Fine Adjustment on E-M1 Mk II

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Originally Posted by DanC.Licks View Post
Don't blame you. It is not as if it were a cheap setup. It SHOULD work....
It's working OK really, but I just need to know how to best use it correctly.

I was testing it on these red gum leaves & thought it should focus on them rather than the background leaves being PD-AF, but then again, the front red leaves may have been moving.

The full image using MF (40-150 Pro + MC14).



A crop of the above with MF.



A crop of an example using S-AF (low sequential drive mode with IS priority, not fps priority)



It's all OK as I'll just get used to using appropriate settings to get what I want. The camera is a beauty!
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Lenses: M.ZD7-14mm f2.8 PRO Lens, M.ZD12-40mm f2.8 PRO Lens, M.ZD40-150mm f2.8 PRO Lens, MC-14, MC-20, M.ZD12-50, M.ZD60 Macro, M.ZD75-300 Mk II, MMF-3, ZD14-54 II, Sigma 150mm F2.8 APO Macro DG HSM.
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Old 25th June 2017
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Re: AF Fine Adjustment on E-M1 Mk II

Ross,
To me the green leaves with yellow spots and yellow edges on them have more contrast than the red leaves and are perhaps more attractive to the AF system. Also, the AF is colorblind though red is sometimes problematic.
I have found in general, that it is somewhat more difficult to be really selective with the Mk II than with the Mk I in situations like that. I feel that the Mk II wants to latch onto the background more than the Mk I, but it could by my imagination, not having held a Mk I for 6 months, and working solely with PDAF with my Canon 400. Here are some test shots I did with the 50-200, which behaves about the same as the Canon/Metabones. The same test using my mFT 75-300 II was revealing in that it was much easier to focus exactly on what I wanted. PDAF and/or CDAF?? Who knows.... ?
Do we know whether the 40-150 Pro + MC-14 uses ONLY PDAF, or does it also use CDAF?
The Oly expert on the German forum wrote a longish comparison of the Mark I and II focus systems, actually somewhat difficult to compare because they are so different. He mentions that the crosses are actually longer than what shows up in the green box, and that they have to be in order for PDAF work. With CDAF the camera examines contrast edges exactly within the box. So his conclusion was that if you want to use FT or adapted lenses and single point, the focus accuracy will be better with the Mark I, otherwise it is Mark II all the way. He also states that you have better chances with 5 or 9 points finding the focus than with single point. My feeling is that although it is easier to be more selective with the 75-300 II, the focus accuracy is better with both the Canon 400 and the 50-200. I have tested them quite a bit with a dedicated focus testing chart, and I get much better results with the two clunkers than with the tiny mFT zoom.
But there again, test charts are one thing, and in the real world, my Mark II seems to find twigs and branches more attractive than fuzzy little baby birds, so I sometimes get nice sharp backgrounds and really fuzzy birds.
Still... I love the camera and I am slowly improving my technique. When it gets it right it is stunning. This series is all with the Mk II, often in difficult light and often difficult situations for the AF. But they are all S-AF, sometimes with a quick manual pre-focus, but not often.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/421620...57679178320144
More on the AF comparison next....
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  #23  
Old 25th June 2017
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Re: AF Fine Adjustment on E-M1 Mk II

Here are a few important points covered by Reinhard Wagner in his article. It is in German here:
http://pen-and-tell.blogspot.co.at/2...r-neue-af.html
His books on all the various Olympus cameras are well known here.
So let me roughly translate/summarize the main points that are relevant to our discussion...

"It is a fact that S-AF on the Mk II works completely differently with FT and mFT lenses.

The cross type sensors on the MkII work quite differently than cross type sensors on a DSLR where "nearest is best" meaning that the closer contrast edge becomes the point of focus. The MkII works completely differently in that it looks for edge quality (contrast) and doesn't care if it is further forward or further back. A black and white contrast edge will be preferred over any other structure, regardless of its position.

If a mFT lens is on the camera, the camera becomes more interested in what is going on AROUND the cross. This means that with a mFT lens attached the camera will likely focus on something other than with a FT lens attached. If there are two contrast edges of equal quality within the field it will become a question of luck which one the camera chooses, further forward or further back.

A further problem with mFT lenses using CDAF arises in that if there is any movement of the camera or the subject, the AF will tell the camera "focus achieved, no need for further adjustment" and you can end up with a blurred shot.

Olympus has put a lot of thought into their AF system, but they don't give us much information on exactly how it works. Where before using 9 or all focus points was something only for birds against a blue sky, it has now become the more sensible option as a single point can behave erratically, but with more points active it is easier for the camera to understand what is nearer and focus on that. With FT lenses it is fast and accurate.

With mFT lenses it can become a problem to have all fields active, as it evaluates both contrast edges and distance, and it will prefer something in the center of the frame rather than something more to the edge, even though it is closer. So here it is better to use 9 or 5 fields, or touch-focus."

Confusing?.... yup! And he hasn't even gotten into C-AF... that can wait. But I find it very interesting and important to understand how an AF system works in order to get the most out of it. Reinhard is an interesting guy, and he knows his stuff, but even his close contacts with Olympus doesn't mean that they will lay all their cards on the table.
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Old 25th June 2017
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Re: AF Fine Adjustment on E-M1 Mk II

One more point,
"With FT lenses, only PDAF is used. With mFT lenses, in S-AF both PDAF and CDAF are used, and with C-AF, again only PDAF."



and....

"One thing is clear, red is still evil! Plain red areas and red cloth are still a big problem for AF."
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Old 25th June 2017
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Re: AF Fine Adjustment on E-M1 Mk II

Blimey this is all pretty confusing, my head hurts from reading this thread in one go to catch up. Just let us mortals know when you guys have sorted it all out and tell us what to do. In the meantime I'll take it that I can now blame the camera for any out of focus shots I get
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  #26  
Old 26th June 2017
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Re: AF Fine Adjustment on E-M1 Mk II

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Originally Posted by DanC.Licks View Post
One more point,
"With FT lenses, only PDAF is used. With mFT lenses, in S-AF both PDAF and CDAF are used, and with C-AF, again only PDAF."



and....

"One thing is clear, red is still evil! Plain red areas and red cloth are still a big problem for AF."
Thanks very much for all of that Dan & I love all those bird images on flickr.

Both red & what I also saw in Google's English translation (plus you quoting it),
Quote:
"Another important finding is that the cross-sensors of the E-M1II react differently than cross-sensors in DSLR cameras. For these, the closer contrast edge is the edge to be focused on. "Nearest is best". The cross sensors of the E-M1II work completely differently. They determine the quality of the contrast edge and the camera then focuses on the best contrast edge. Whether it is front or rear, is not relevant for the camera."
now makes it much clearer to me. The other static object where it had issues was an old red connection box on my neighbour's redundant TV antenna pole. It seemed to work well with the same lens combination on the E-M1 & not so great on the Mk II & is why I started wondering why & what were the real differences. This information you have passed on confirms what I am seeing & makes better sense on the Mk II behaviour & hence, makes it clearer on how to use it. Another less distinct subject are banksia flower spikes that are barely larger than the focus box. Most of my interest for the small focus area is to grab that elusive bird shot as they visit our place, but being winter they aren't as active around here now (I haven't been putting out bribing seed either).

These are what I was testing AF on & where they weren't behaving as well as I had expected.



And a crop of the above.


Thanks again for all your help here as it answers most of my questions very well. Some things may just need MF assistance & since the Pro lens have a manual focus ring on it so easy to use it I will likely use that more on occasions (so long as it isn't a bird that won't cooperate).

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Flickr: https://www.flickr.com/photos/ross-the-fiddler/
Cameras: OM-D E-M1 & Mk II, Olympus Stylus 1, OM-D E-M5.
Lenses: M.ZD7-14mm f2.8 PRO Lens, M.ZD12-40mm f2.8 PRO Lens, M.ZD40-150mm f2.8 PRO Lens, MC-14, MC-20, M.ZD12-50, M.ZD60 Macro, M.ZD75-300 Mk II, MMF-3, ZD14-54 II, Sigma 150mm F2.8 APO Macro DG HSM.
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Old 26th June 2017
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Re: AF Fine Adjustment on E-M1 Mk II

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Originally Posted by Phill D View Post
Blimey this is all pretty confusing, my head hurts from reading this thread in one go to catch up. Just let us mortals know when you guys have sorted it all out and tell us what to do. In the meantime I'll take it that I can now blame the camera for any out of focus shots I get
My take on it: leave the AF Fine Adjustment alone except for Four Thirds DSLR lenses & take note of how the PD-AF with CD-AF on the Mk II actually achieves focus & note that red objects might not be as easy to focus on as one might assume (red does appear dark in B&W) as described here, http://pen-and-tell.blogspot.com.au/...r-neue-af.html (using Google translate).

I've also added this into the opening of the thread, so others don't have to 'hurt their head' in trying to find it.
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Flickr: https://www.flickr.com/photos/ross-the-fiddler/
Cameras: OM-D E-M1 & Mk II, Olympus Stylus 1, OM-D E-M5.
Lenses: M.ZD7-14mm f2.8 PRO Lens, M.ZD12-40mm f2.8 PRO Lens, M.ZD40-150mm f2.8 PRO Lens, MC-14, MC-20, M.ZD12-50, M.ZD60 Macro, M.ZD75-300 Mk II, MMF-3, ZD14-54 II, Sigma 150mm F2.8 APO Macro DG HSM.
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Old 26th June 2017
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Re: AF Fine Adjustment on E-M1 Mk II

One of the first tests I did with my new E-M1 mk2 in December was to play with the AF Fine Adjustment.

The bottom line is that with my 40-150mm Pro, changing the adjustment had no effect when using S-AF, however it had the desired effect using C-AF.

From this I concluded that (with M.Zuiko lenses and no adapter) S-AF uses CDAF while C-AF uses PDAF.

I did not repeat the test for my other lenses. I was using the regular sized center focus point. The lens was wide open and at maximum zoom.

BTW, the focus point of my 40-150mm Pro did not need adjustment.
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Re: AF Fine Adjustment on E-M1 Mk II

Finally a bird to test on.

I could not get focus on the bird's head in this so focussed on the feet & branch & recomposed.



This is a crop of the above to show there is detail to be had if focussed OK.



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Lenses: M.ZD7-14mm f2.8 PRO Lens, M.ZD12-40mm f2.8 PRO Lens, M.ZD40-150mm f2.8 PRO Lens, MC-14, MC-20, M.ZD12-50, M.ZD60 Macro, M.ZD75-300 Mk II, MMF-3, ZD14-54 II, Sigma 150mm F2.8 APO Macro DG HSM.
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Old 26th June 2017
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Re: AF Fine Adjustment on E-M1 Mk II

Phil,
Believe me, I feel your pain!
Here are some simple hints on how to go about it...
1. Point
2. Shoot
3. Enjoy

and finally..
4. Don't pay attention to us trolls

Seriously though, this is such a great camera and it can do so much and the AF is worlds better than what it was not all that long ago. Some of us like to fuss and fiddle, but that is part of the game, discovering a new system and trying to figure out how it works and what the fine points are. Keeps "ze leetle gray cells" from drying up all together.
My favorite camera/lens for two years was the E-M1 I with a Canon 400/5.6 mounted on it, all MF only and wide open. It could DELIVER!
14698201744_c3283fffc7_b.jpg
Then came the revelation in the form of a firmware update for the Metabones Smart Adapter that allowed AF! Keeper rate skyrocketed! Now with the Mark II I have gotten really spoiled. It delivers so consistently and produces such good results, and I still feel that I am after 6 months and over 10,000 shots just beginning to really get a grip on it, and I don't even have the luxury of the wonderful Oly Pro lenses! Still so happy with the Canon 400 I am not even tempted by something like the Panaleica 100-400 that would no doubt be more practical, but would be a step down on the long end. To me it is a question of understanding and accepting the limitations of the system being used to get the most out of it.

PS. I use S-AF/MF all the time with my Canon and FT lenses. Especially with long lenses and ESPECIALLY when the light is not great, the EVF and focus peaking etc are a real boon! If there is enough time, it is best not to rely on ANY AF system entirely (and that includes C&N).
I think of AF as a time saver. If there is time, AF or AF+MF is fine, but if there isn't, AF is a lifesaver.
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