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Olympus OM-D E-M1 The first Micro Four Thirds camera that offers phase detect focusing so you can use Four Thirds DSLR lenses normally as well a Micro Four Thirds lenses.

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Old 24th November 2013
bredman bredman is offline
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Re: Lots of Noise On Long Exposures

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterBirder View Post
I think it's more likely that the E-M1 is "cooking raws" (most amusing concept).

In order to provide the PD focusing that many wanted a number of green pixels in the centre of the sensor have had to be sacrificed. This missing data has to be replaced by interpolation from the surrounding green pixels.
I'm no sensor expert, but if the addition of PD pixels in the central area is the reason for the LE disparity between the EM5 and the EM1, then i'm amazed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterBirder View Post
With all respect I can't imagine that the use of their cameras for amateur astro photography is a factor that weighs heavily with Olympus' designers when considering the market they are hoping to maximise sales in.
I agree, but this isn't a point and shoot for the general public is it? Maybe it is. It was Olympus that claimed this as a pro spec camera. Besides, amateur astro photography is just one small reason for taking long exposures. DFS is a workaround but sometimes would be awkward, that's all. If the EM5 is cooking the data afterall then they just need a firmware update to fix this.

Back to the pro spec thing, i had my 3rd lock up yesterday. About 10 mins of use since the last one. Which was 30 mins of on-time since the 1st and i can't shoot a single frame shot as it won't be anywhere near sharp, it's all short bursts in the hope one's sharp enough. I'm just not using it now, the lenses are off -- back on the EM5. : I need Olympus to do/say something, before i return it for a refund and look to eventually jumping ship (i already sold some m43 lenses in preparation for this), it's too much money for something that isn't working.
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Old 24th November 2013
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Re: Lots of Noise On Long Exposures

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Originally Posted by bredman View Post
This is interesting read. Also a few links to other discussions from that page. This isn't a deal breaker for me, but it is one intended use i may have to rule out for this camera. Soon i'm moving house to a 'dark sky area'.

http://www.seldomscenephotography.co...ong-exposures/
Interesting indeed. The last set at different ISO's clearly shows that it's related purely to exposure time. I can also see the same actual patterns of "dots" in the first three which would not be the case if it is "noise" in the normal sense which is entirely random. I had forgotten about John's (Birdboy) posts and the fact that these patterns show indicate that it's the same problem he had and that they are taken from jpg's.

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Old 24th November 2013
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Re: Lots of Noise On Long Exposures

Do please get in touch with Olympus techies as anything like these problems really worry me and I simply can't afford a spare camera in case I get lockups....

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Quote:
Originally Posted by bredman View Post
I'm no sensor expert, but if the addition of PD pixels in the central area is the reason for the LE disparity between the EM5 and the EM1, then i'm amazed.



I agree, but this isn't a point and shoot for the general public is it? Maybe it is. It was Olympus that claimed this as a pro spec camera. Besides, amateur astro photography is just one small reason for taking long exposures. DFS is a workaround but sometimes would be awkward, that's all. If the EM5 is cooking the data afterall then they just need a firmware update to fix this.

Back to the pro spec thing, i had my 3rd lock up yesterday. About 10 mins of use since the last one. Which was 30 mins of on-time since the 1st and i can't shoot a single frame shot as it won't be anywhere near sharp, it's all short bursts in the hope one's sharp enough. I'm just not using it now, the lenses are off -- back on the EM5. : I need Olympus to do/say something, before i return it for a refund and look to eventually jumping ship (i already sold some m43 lenses in preparation for this), it's too much money for something that isn't working.
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Old 24th November 2013
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Re: Lots of Noise On Long Exposures

Hi John,

I only shoot in RAW.

I need to stress again, I think that the issue is that the EM5 copes with Landscape photography with no problems. The EM1 is the pro version of the OMD range, so shouldn't have any problems with this type of exposure. I would have thought this to be a basic requirement of any camera and certainly one with the label of being a pro and 'top of the range'.

When I get the time, I will carry out more tests, but I suspect, as with others I will find the same results. Meaning I either need to take a 'dark' image and use that in processing or switch on the noise reduction. Again, I state, this was not necessary in the EM5 and shouldn't be with the EM1.

I am very disappointed and bought a second body as I felt certain the EM1 was good enough for me to sell my Nikon D3S and plethora of fast lenses. Having sold my D3X earlier this year, I am now wondering if I should hang on to the Nikon kit I have and sell my second EM1.

It would be great to hear that Olympus are looking into this and will find a solution. But in the meantime, my EM1 will be used for everything else I take photographs of, but maybe not long exposures of landscapes and water.

Someone on flickr said he doesn't like long exposures of smooth water. That is really not the point. We each choose to shoot what we prefer and these type of photos are recognised as being those I enjoy to take. Making the skill of getting the photo exactly as I want it, the target I aim for. I know I am certainly not alone in this desire.

Best regards

Chris
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Old 24th November 2013
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Re: Lots of Noise On Long Exposures

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Originally Posted by G2EWS View Post
Hi John,

I only shoot in RAW.

I need to stress again, I think that the issue is that the EM5 copes with Landscape photography with no problems. The EM1 is the pro version of the OMD range, so shouldn't have any problems with this type of exposure. I would have thought this to be a basic requirement of any camera and certainly one with the label of being a pro and 'top of the range'.

When I get the time, I will carry out more tests, but I suspect, as with others I will find the same results. Meaning I either need to take a 'dark' image and use that in processing or switch on the noise reduction. Again, I state, this was not necessary in the EM5 and shouldn't be with the EM1.

I am very disappointed and bought a second body as I felt certain the EM1 was good enough for me to sell my Nikon D3S and plethora of fast lenses. Having sold my D3X earlier this year, I am now wondering if I should hang on to the Nikon kit I have and sell my second EM1.

It would be great to hear that Olympus are looking into this and will find a solution. But in the meantime, my EM1 will be used for everything else I take photographs of, but maybe not long exposures of landscapes and water.

Someone on flickr said he doesn't like long exposures of smooth water. That is really not the point. We each choose to shoot what we prefer and these type of photos are recognised as being those I enjoy to take. Making the skill of getting the photo exactly as I want it, the target I aim for. I know I am certainly not alone in this desire.

Best regards

Chris
I really am hoping that the problem lies within the in camera processing. I personally do not think that the answer is to use NR. for 1) I got a serious amount of noise on a 8sec firework picture and 2) the em5 does not have this problem.

I have only just upgraded to LR5.2 and shall revisit my black dots issue. The reason being there is a suggestion that LR removes hot/dead pixels type noise and it may be a case that LR4.4 behaves differently than LR5.2 regarding how it processes the raw files. If you have a copy of LR4.4 it would be interesting to see if your dng file gives the same resulting picture in LR4.4 and LR5.2.

On this issue there appears to be too many irrelevant comments being made that does nothing but distract from those of us who want to use the top level Oly camera for long exposures be they; night skys, fireworks, light trials, light painting etc. This is supposed to be a creative camera, a game changer, their should not be limits to what you can use it for or what effects you want to create especially when it's earlier sibling, the EM5, seems to do the same thing better.

Whatever is causing this I do agree that Olympus by now should issue a statement saying that they understand the problem, and that they are looking into a solution or confirm that this is a "feature " of the new sensor. These forums have the potential to do a lot of damage to a product if the manufacturer stays silent on the issue.
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Old 24th November 2013
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Re: Lots of Noise On Long Exposures

I seem to remember the oft response to my regular observations on the E-M5 being inferior to many foregoing E System cameras for bird photography. This ran along the lines of "Olympus can't be expected to design a camera specifically for the relatively minor sector of bird photographers" (my words, but that was the meat of the comments).

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Old 25th November 2013
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Re: Lots of Noise On Long Exposures

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Originally Posted by David Morison View Post
I seem to remember the oft response to my regular observations on the E-M5 being inferior to many foregoing E System cameras for bird photography. This ran along the lines of "Olympus can't be expected to design a camera specifically for the relatively minor sector of bird photographers" (my words, but that was the meat of the comments).

David
Olympus cameras are what they are, and that is pitched towards mainstream, general photography which they do rather well. A lot of professional applications fall comfortably into this category and cameras such as the OMD series are capable of meeting those professional standards.

They are not specialist in the same way that the Canon 7D is for bird/sports/action photography, making it pretty much unique amongst APS-C DSLRs, or the Nikon D3s is for high ISO low light work, or the D800E is for applications requiring really high resolution from an unusually large pixel count for huge, detailed prints. Some of those cameras, which excel in specific areas, might not suit general purpose photography as much as the OMDs. More general purpose DSLRs might not do much better than the Olympus models for some of the applications best served by a specialist camera.
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  #23  
Old 25th November 2013
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Re: Lots of Noise On Long Exposures

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Originally Posted by Zuiko View Post
Olympus cameras are what they are, and that is pitched towards mainstream, general photography which they do rather well. A lot of professional applications fall comfortably into this category and cameras such as the OMD series are capable of meeting those professional standards.

They are not specialist in the same way that the Canon 7D is for bird/sports/action photography, making it pretty much unique amongst APS-C DSLRs, or the Nikon D3s is for high ISO low light work, or the D800E is for applications requiring really high resolution from an unusually large pixel count for huge, detailed prints. Some of those cameras, which excel in specific areas, might not suit general purpose photography as much as the OMDs. More general purpose DSLRs might not do much better than the Olympus models for some of the applications best served by a specialist camera.
Hi John,

Sorry to repeat myself.

The problem is that the EM5 did this job perfectly, the EM1 which is THE top end Olympus pro camera does not.

Of course each camera has it's benefits and merits, but the EM1 for a lot of us, was going to be the camera that allowed us to cut the tie we had to our FF cameras. Of course the EM1 would not be as good as my DS for sports, wildlife or gigs/low light, nor would it be as good as my D3X for landscapes and portrait.

But those of us who had got used to the amazing EM5 saw features in the EM1 that could get us that near to these other cameras, it was worth going for broke.

For me this week in the Lake District was about making the EM1 work for me as a landscape camera and it did that in almost every aspect.

In no way did any of us expect the 'pro' version of our EM5's to be worse at any of the photographic opportunities we might use it for.

That is key problem we have here.

Best regards

Chris
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Old 25th November 2013
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Re: Lots of Noise On Long Exposures

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Originally Posted by G2EWS View Post
Hi John,

Sorry to repeat myself.

The problem is that the EM5 did this job perfectly, the EM1 which is THE top end Olympus pro camera does not.

Of course each camera has it's benefits and merits, but the EM1 for a lot of us, was going to be the camera that allowed us to cut the tie we had to our FF cameras. Of course the EM1 would not be as good as my DS for sports, wildlife or gigs/low light, nor would it be as good as my D3X for landscapes and portrait.

But those of us who had got used to the amazing EM5 saw features in the EM1 that could get us that near to these other cameras, it was worth going for broke.

For me this week in the Lake District was about making the EM1 work for me as a landscape camera and it did that in almost every aspect.

In no way did any of us expect the 'pro' version of our EM5's to be worse at any of the photographic opportunities we might use it for.

That is key problem we have here.

Best regards

Chris
I was due to take delivery of an E-M1 body to compliment the E-M5 & utilise my present 4/3's lenses (as well as the M4/3's lenses I have now & in the future). I didn't go ahead because of surrounding circumstances (bush fires) which helped me rethink my photographic needs. The two bodies would have been ideal as a pair to cater for a variety of uses, but I have decided to have an extra light camera to compliment the E-M5 kit instead in the new mini OM-D ( ), the Stylus 1.

I'm sorry it isn't what you were hoping for in every aspect & particularly the area of interest you have found it lacking, but if one can afford it, the two bodies (E-M5 & E-M1) would be a good working pair to use.
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Old 25th November 2013
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Re: Lots of Noise On Long Exposures

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Originally Posted by Ross the fiddler View Post
I was due to take delivery of an E-M1 body to compliment the E-M5 & utilise my present 4/3's lenses (as well as the M4/3's lenses I have now & in the future). I didn't go ahead because of surrounding circumstances (bush fires) which helped me rethink my photographic needs. The two bodies would have been ideal as a pair to cater for a variety of uses, but I have decided to have an extra light camera to compliment the E-M5 kit instead in the new mini OM-D ( ), the Stylus 1.

I'm sorry it isn't what you were hoping for in every aspect & particularly the area of interest you have found it lacking, but if one can afford it, the two bodies (E-M5 & E-M1) would be a good working pair to use.
Hi Ross,

As mentioned I have 2 x EM1's and sold my EM5 recently.

At the moment it will be D3S for landscape and the EM1 for everything else.

Having said that I am taking the photos at a friends Daughter's wedding in Feb next year. If this problem hasn't been resolved, I may be taking my D3S, for the low light evening shots!

Best regards

Chris
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Old 25th November 2013
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Re: Lots of Noise On Long Exposures

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Hi Ross,

As mentioned I have 2 x EM1's and sold my EM5 recently.

At the moment it will be D3S for landscape and the EM1 for everything else.

Having said that I am taking the photos at a friends Daughter's wedding in Feb next year. If this problem hasn't been resolved, I may be taking my D3S, for the low light evening shots!

Best regards

Chris
But you wouldn't be using long exposures for that so the E-M1 would cope admirably and be much less intrusive in a social context as not only the camera but long lenses would be much less obvious to your subjects.

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Re: Lots of Noise On Long Exposures

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But you wouldn't be using long exposures for that so the E-M1 would cope admirably and be much less intrusive in a social context as not only the camera but long lenses would be much less obvious to your subjects.

David

Hi David,

Some people including me have experienced problems when using the EM1 as opposed to the EM5, with noise when shooting in low light with short exposures. I just didn't want it to cloud the main point of this conversation.

Best regards

Chris
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Old 25th November 2013
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Re: Lots of Noise On Long Exposures

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Originally Posted by G2EWS View Post
Hi David,

Some people including me have experienced problems when using the EM1 as opposed to the EM5, with noise when shooting in low light with short exposures. I just didn't want it to cloud the main point of this conversation.

Best regards

Chris
Hi Chris,

If you require extreme low light performance and you still have the D3s it's bound to out-perform either the E-M5 or E-M1, as you know it's that sort of camera!

Back on topic, I do take your point that regardless of any other comparisons the E-M1 should at least equal the E-M5 in all aspects of performance. The fact that it appears not to, through the experience of yourself and a nummber of others, is rather worrying and perplexing.

If anyone has both an E-M5 and E-M1 it might be worth doing several long exposure side by side comarisons of various durations without using NR. The findings could then be presented to Olympus for further investigation.
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Old 25th November 2013
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Re: Lots of Noise On Long Exposures

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Hi Chris,

Back on topic, I do take your point that regardless of any other comparisons the E-M1 should at least equal the E-M5 in all aspects of performance. The fact that it appears not to, through the experience of yourself and a nummber of others, is rather worrying and perplexing.

If anyone has both an E-M5 and E-M1 it might be worth doing several long exposure side by side comarisons of various durations without using NR. The findings could then be presented to Olympus for further investigation.
This has already been done extensively on other forums, the problem is real, its repeatable, YOU DO NOT GET IT WITH THE EM5 (sorry for shouting but the point Chris keeps returning seems to be ignored) it needs a response from Olympus not more testing and not more confusion. I have not done any more testing on the related black dots issue because I am waiting for Olympus to come back to me.
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Old 25th November 2013
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Re: Lots of Noise On Long Exposures

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This has already been done extensively on other forums, the problem is real, its repeatable, YOU DO NOT GET IT WITH THE EM5 (sorry for shouting but the point Chris keeps returning seems to be ignored) it needs a response from Olympus not more testing and not more confusion. I have not done any more testing on the related black dots issue because I am waiting for Olympus to come back to me.
I thought I was acknowledging the point Chris is making.

As for other forums, I'm sorry that I haven't researched this more fully, but not having an E-M1 it is not so much of an issue for me. Having said that, naturally I am keen that any issues with the new camera are resolved.
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