Olympus UK E-System User Group
Olympus UK E-System User Group

Join our unique resource for Olympus Four Thirds E-System DSLR and Pen and OM-D Micro Four Thirds photographers. Show your images via our free e-group photo gallery. Please read the e-group.uk.net forum terms and conditions before posting for the first time. Above all, welcome!


Go Back   Olympus UK E-System User Group > Out of Focus area > The lounge

The lounge Relax, take a break from photo and camera talk - have a chat about something else for a change. Just keep it clean and polite!

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 10th August 2019
Naughty Nigel's Avatar
Naughty Nigel Naughty Nigel is offline
Full member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Land of the Prince Bishops
Posts: 9,883
Thanks: 403
Thanked 568 Times in 481 Posts
Likes: 3,416
Liked 2,403 Times in 1,583 Posts
Do We Rely Too Much on Electricity?

According to government legislation the sale of ICE (internal combustion engine) cars will be illegal from 2040 onwards, or earlier if environmental pressure groups get their way. Lorries, buses and even ferries will also become increasingly reliant on electricity.

There is pressure on government to electrify more and more of our railway network, and more recently, moves to ban the installation of mains gas supplies to newbuild houses for at least five years after completion - all in a bid to force householders to cook and heat with electricity which is claimed to be more eco-friendly than gas, but costs around five times as much per KW/Hr of energy.

Then yesterday the near simultaneous failure of two generators; one of which was an offshore wind farm with too much wind, resulted in paralysis of several areas around the country including much of central London, Ipswich, Newcastle-upon-Tyne and our railway network. BBC Report

Rather than rely entirely on electricity for our energy needs I would rather have more independence and redundancy in our supply network. We have seen that a bit of wind can paralyse our railways by bringing down short lengths of overhead power lines - a problem that diesels simply don't have, whilst even short term power cuts tend to have much longer term effects.

I would also have thought that there were more intelligent ways of reducing load on the grid than by randomly cutting off whole areas of the country.

With more and more demand on the grid things will only get worse. I cannot see the point of imposing fines on the National Grid or individual generators when it is in their interests to maintain supply and sell electricity.
__________________
---------------

Naughty Nigel


Difficult is worth doing
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 11th August 2019
wornish's Avatar
wornish wornish is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Cheshire
Posts: 6,034
Thanks: 340
Thanked 546 Times in 426 Posts
Likes: 2,849
Liked 1,586 Times in 783 Posts
Re: Do We Rely Too Much on Electricity?

Our energy strategy as a country is nonexistent.

We have civil servants and government ministers all trying to be green without thinking through the consequences.

No one seems to be prepared to invest in building the right infrastructure.

Instead, they make knee jerk decisions like hitting Diesel car owners with extra taxes after spending the last 10 years encouraging people to drive them. Then they act surprised that the car industry is struggling.
__________________
Dave

My Flickr
Reply With Quote
The Following Users Liked This Post:
Internaut (11th August 2019), Naughty Nigel (11th August 2019)
  #3  
Old 11th August 2019
Naughty Nigel's Avatar
Naughty Nigel Naughty Nigel is offline
Full member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Land of the Prince Bishops
Posts: 9,883
Thanks: 403
Thanked 568 Times in 481 Posts
Likes: 3,416
Liked 2,403 Times in 1,583 Posts
Re: Do We Rely Too Much on Electricity?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wornish View Post
Our energy strategy as a country is nonexistent.

We have civil servants and government ministers all trying to be green without thinking through the consequences.

No one seems to be prepared to invest in building the right infrastructure.

Instead, they make knee jerk decisions like hitting Diesel car owners with extra taxes after spending the last 10 years encouraging people to drive them. Then they act surprised that the car industry is struggling.
You have it spot on there.

Likewise closing down large parts of the railway network and building new houses where there is no public transport and then wondering why nobody uses public transport.

Fifty years on from Beeching they realise their mistake and are taxing us for it!
__________________
---------------

Naughty Nigel


Difficult is worth doing
Reply With Quote
The Following User Liked This Post:
TimP (11th August 2019)
  #4  
Old 11th August 2019
shenstone's Avatar
shenstone shenstone is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Cardiff
Posts: 3,435
Thanks: 168
Thanked 333 Times in 254 Posts
Likes: 438
Liked 543 Times in 293 Posts
Re: Do We Rely Too Much on Electricity?

The simple answer is probably, but more that we expect it to be on all the time and delivered to us

We don't worry so much

Mind you we have 20 cubic metres of seasoned wood for the stove, a few paraffin and gas stoves and lamps for our camping, a solar panel on the camper van and a decent 4G signal outside if the power to the router is off

Regards
Andy
__________________
My Kit (OK I'm a hoarder...)
4/3 E500, E510, E30 + 35macro, 50macro, 7-14, 11-22, 14-45 (x2), 14-54, 40-150 (both types), 50-200, 70-300, 50-500,
m 4/3 EM1MkII + 60 macro, 12-100 Pro
FL20, FL36 x2 , FL50, cactus slaves etc.
The Boss (Mrs Shenstone) E620, EM10-II, 14-41Ez, 40-150R, 9 cap and whatever she can nick from me when she wants it

My places
http://www.shenstone.me.uk
http://landroverkaty.blogspot.com/
https://vimeo.com/shenstone
http://cardiffnaturalists.org.uk/
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 11th August 2019
pdk42's Avatar
pdk42 pdk42 is offline
Full member
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Leamington Spa
Posts: 5,710
Thanks: 370
Thanked 1,257 Times in 942 Posts
Likes: 150
Liked 6,007 Times in 1,955 Posts
Re: Do We Rely Too Much on Electricity?

I know someone who works for National Grid and I spoke to him today about the power outage last week and about capacity planning in general. Contrary to what many have posted here, he would not agree that we have a lack of strategy. There is a lot of thinking being put into long term energy availability and it includes modeling for things like the expected uptake of EVs.

However, he did say that unlike in the days of the CEGB, where the emphasis was on large, expensive and highly redundant generators and distribution, the new highly privatised system is more dynamic and runs closer to capacity than in days of old. However, at the same time it has led to cheaper electricity and more diversity in generation types. It not necessarily worse - just different.

It reminds me of discussions about the supply chain in NYC (or other large US cities). It's not centrally coordinated and there's no "master plan", but the ceaseless activities of a large number of individuals and organisations somehow manage to successfully supply one of the world's largest conurbations with fresh food of breathtaking variety, all delivered "just in time" and managing to continue in the face of climatic adversity and all manner of other impediments.

Yet look at any one of the links in the chain and it seems alarmingly fragile, but there is always someone else or some alternative route that springs up if a link fails. It's a classic example of how chaotic but directed behaviour at the low level can somehow yield something looking like a well-oiled machine at the macro level. Of course there are hiccups from time to time, but all-in-all, it works. Some might call it the market economy .
__________________
Paul
E-M1ii, Pen-F and too many lenses
flickr
Portfolio Site
Instagram
Reply With Quote
The Following Users Liked This Post:
MJ224 (12th August 2019), Naughty Nigel (11th August 2019), Otto (12th August 2019)
  #6  
Old 12th August 2019
wornish's Avatar
wornish wornish is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Cheshire
Posts: 6,034
Thanks: 340
Thanked 546 Times in 426 Posts
Likes: 2,849
Liked 1,586 Times in 783 Posts
Re: Do We Rely Too Much on Electricity?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pdk42 View Post
I know someone who works for National Grid and I spoke to him today about the power outage last week and about capacity planning in general. Contrary to what many have posted here, he would not agree that we have a lack of strategy. There is a lot of thinking being put into long term energy availability and it includes modeling for things like the expected uptake of EVs.

However, he did say that unlike in the days of the CEGB, where the emphasis was on large, expensive and highly redundant generators and distribution, the new highly privatised system is more dynamic and runs closer to capacity than in days of old. However, at the same time it has led to cheaper electricity and more diversity in generation types. It not necessarily worse - just different.

It reminds me of discussions about the supply chain in NYC (or other large US cities). It's not centrally coordinated and there's no "master plan", but the ceaseless activities of a large number of individuals and organisations somehow manage to successfully supply one of the world's largest conurbations with fresh food of breathtaking variety, all delivered "just in time" and managing to continue in the face of climatic adversity and all manner of other impediments.

Yet look at any one of the links in the chain and it seems alarmingly fragile, but there is always someone else or some alternative route that springs up if a link fails. It's a classic example of how chaotic but directed behaviour at the low level can somehow yield something looking like a well-oiled machine at the macro level. Of course there are hiccups from time to time, but all-in-all, it works. Some might call it the market economy .


As the person works for the National Grid, of course, they would say they have a strategy and they have "thought a lot" about EVs and the changes coming. Be nice of them to perhaps share that strategy and get outside critical review. My guess is their strategy is simply to make as much short term profit as possible without investing in replacing any old infrastructure.

If they can't handle two small generators going out without huge areas of the UK losing power for hours we are in trouble.

Delivering power is a little bit more critical than delivering a variety of foodstuffs. NYC had a major power outage a few days ago which lasted more than a whole day. This was when the temperatures were in the high 90's F so they suffered even more than us.

Did you ask your contact what they have invested in the last 15 or so years and what they plan to invest in the next 15?

If we have a long term strategy has your contact claims how come that for the base level supply, the UK has no company capable of building a nuclear power station! We should be ashamed of that fact given our history. But eh oh all is well.

Sitting back and saying its all fine trust us is typical of a fat cat business whose overpaid senior management are incompetent. What a demanding life they lead.
__________________
Dave

My Flickr

Last edited by wornish; 13th August 2019 at 06:51 AM. Reason: Corrected false statement
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 12th August 2019
Walti Walti is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Cambridge
Posts: 3,511
Thanks: 333
Thanked 234 Times in 200 Posts
Likes: 263
Liked 1,789 Times in 662 Posts
Re: Do We Rely Too Much on Electricity?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wornish View Post
As the person works for the National Grid, of course, they would say they have a strategy and they have "thought a lot" about EVs and the changes coming. Be nice of them to perhaps share that strategy and get outside critical review. My guess is their strategy is simply to make as much profit as possible without investing in replacing any old infrastructure.

If they can't handle two small generators going out without huge areas of the UK losing power for hours we are in trouble.

Delivering power is a little bit more critical than delivering a variety of foodstuffs. NYC had a major power outage a few days ago which lasted more than a whole day. This was when the temperatures were in the high 90's F so they suffered even more than us.

Did you ask your contact what they have invested in the last 15 or so years and what they plan to invest in the next 15?

If we have a long term strategy has your contact claims how come that for the base level supply, the UK has no company capable of building a nuclear power station! We should be ashamed of that fact given our history. But eh oh all is well.

Sitting back and saying its all fine trust us is typical of a fat cat business whose overpaid senior management are incompetent. Apparently, all of them are on holiday at the moment so no one can be contacted. What a demanding life they lead.
The Grid do share their strategy. I no longer have access to the information having retired, but I regularly got updates on what issues were seen for the short medium and long terms of the networks, both at transmission and distribution levels.

One of the complexities is the desire to do the correct thing is often compromised by political meddling to do the "green policy Du Jour" which can undo some of the work in place to date...

As a major consuming customer, we managed to reduce our demand on the electricity networks nationally by roughly 400,000,000kWh/annum and we were one user... this style of reduction changes the way in which the networks plan their strategies, and they also are encouraging consumers to look at supporting technologies for their consumptions, as I left 2 years ago the negotiations to install several 3GWh battery networks into the business were well under way. - I'm not interested enough to find out if they're installed and operational yet!
__________________

Some Olympus stuff
I didn't get where I am today...
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 12th August 2019
wornish's Avatar
wornish wornish is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Cheshire
Posts: 6,034
Thanks: 340
Thanked 546 Times in 426 Posts
Likes: 2,849
Liked 1,586 Times in 783 Posts
Re: Do We Rely Too Much on Electricity?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Walti View Post
The Grid do share their strategy. I no longer have access to the information having retired, but I regularly got updates on what issues were seen for the short medium and long terms of the networks, both at transmission and distribution levels.

One of the complexities is the desire to do the correct thing is often compromised by political meddling to do the "green policy Du Jour" which can undo some of the work in place to date...

As a major consuming customer, we managed to reduce our demand on the electricity networks nationally by roughly 400,000,000kWh/annum and we were one user... this style of reduction changes the way in which the networks plan their strategies, and they also are encouraging consumers to look at supporting technologies for their consumptions, as I left 2 years ago the negotiations to install several 3GWh battery networks into the business were well under way. - I'm not interested enough to find out if they're installed and operational yet!

Your second para sums it up perfectly. "green policy Du Jour". That's certainly a major challenge to keep up with the latest fashion.

With that size of load the company was I am guessing either in the Steel, Aluminium or Glass industry or ? How did they make such a huge saving? I would be very interested to know.
__________________
Dave

My Flickr
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 12th August 2019
Walti Walti is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Cambridge
Posts: 3,511
Thanks: 333
Thanked 234 Times in 200 Posts
Likes: 263
Liked 1,789 Times in 662 Posts
Re: Do We Rely Too Much on Electricity?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wornish View Post
Your second para sums it up perfectly. "green policy Du Jour". That's certainly a major challenge to keep up with the latest fashion.

With that size of load the company was I am guessing either in the Steel, Aluminium or Glass industry or ? How did they make such a huge saving? I would be very interested to know.
That's a reasonable saving for a medium/large sized retailer! Bigger ones have made bigger savings.

The industrial usage is well outside the retail sector. Tata Steel use enough power to change the billing system if they change their usage! The billing system was changing for the year after I left the industry so I'm slightly out of date but the premise remains:

Electricity costs around 2.5 - 4p /kWh was split into three rates for Green, Amber and Red periods during the day.

Your local distribution company (DNO) will charge between 0.01p and 40p/kWh (yes seriously) to take the power from the transmission network to your door, the rates are again split into Red, Amber, Green and vary on an hourly basis, this is done deliberately to try and even out the consumption during the day, so companies can be seen switching off non-essential services when the charge is at it's highest.

The Transmission charges were a bizarre calculation based upon the peak demand measured for the whole network, and accounted for charges that were as high as 50/kWh for a 1 hour period, for three periods during the previous peak season, this was then amortised over your next annual bill! (TRIAD periods) This has now been changed for another billing system.

There are then charges for your meter provision, meter reading, data provision, your peak load provision, standing charges, various taxes based upon the source of your power, Carbon Reduction incentives and taxes.

All - in - all a commercial power bill is made up of around 12-15 elements, all billed separately to large users so they can manage the elements of the bill. We were using one company to manage the electricity we bought on the spot market and long-term markets, with feed-in sleeving for power bought from our own suppliers (Farmers with aerobic digestion plants, wind farms, Hydro electric schemes and so on...) The meters were then supplied by another, meter reading by a third, tax management by a fourth and on it went!

All these charges are also made within your domestic bill, but your supplier averages them all out to give you a standard unit price that covers most of these charges.
__________________

Some Olympus stuff
I didn't get where I am today...
Reply With Quote
The Following User Liked This Post:
Naughty Nigel (12th August 2019)
  #10  
Old 12th August 2019
Otto's Avatar
Otto Otto is offline
Full member
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: North Yorkshire
Posts: 3,154
Thanks: 97
Thanked 286 Times in 251 Posts
Likes: 1,088
Liked 935 Times in 592 Posts
Re: Do We Rely Too Much on Electricity?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Walti View Post
All these charges are also made within your domestic bill, but your supplier averages them all out to give you a standard unit price that covers most of these charges.

Surely all this cannot be the reason the government wants us all to have Smart Meters. Can it? . [/cynic]
__________________
Regards
Richard
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 12th August 2019
Harold Gough Harold Gough is offline
Full member
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Reading UK
Posts: 5,912
Thanks: 58
Thanked 832 Times in 760 Posts
Likes: 40
Liked 3,320 Times in 1,790 Posts
Re: Do We Rely Too Much on Electricity?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto View Post
Surely all this cannot be the reason the government wants us all to have Smart Meters. Can it? . [/cynic]
What we want is smart government. Some hope!

Harold
__________________
The body is willing but the mind is weak.
Reply With Quote
The Following Users Liked This Post:
Otto (12th August 2019), TimP (12th August 2019)
  #12  
Old 11th August 2019
Wally's Avatar
Wally Wally is offline
Full member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Land of the Prince Bishops
Posts: 3,789
Thanks: 257
Thanked 1,128 Times in 705 Posts
Likes: 524
Liked 1,469 Times in 734 Posts
Re: Do We Rely Too Much on Electricity?

Even going geen has it's long-term implications... perhaps longships and tall mast sailing is the 'green way' way to go??? Instead of Land Rovers we will be using Land Schooners. Should make the school runs much more interesting methinks? The search for blue gold https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49265455
__________________
It's not what inspires us that is important, it's where the journey takes us.

Wally and his Collie with our Oly bits & bobs

Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 11th August 2019
OM USer's Avatar
OM USer OM USer is offline
Full member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: London
Posts: 12,352
Thanks: 2,420
Thanked 1,524 Times in 1,450 Posts
Likes: 6,352
Liked 1,448 Times in 925 Posts
Re: Do We Rely Too Much on Electricity?

Regardless of the fuel used (diesel, petrol, LPG, hydrogen, wind, electricity, water turbine) you will always need a portable method of storage and supply for when the delivery chain mechanism fails eg: generator failure or other outage, lack of wind, disrupted power lines, broken gas mains. That is why diesel, petrol, and avgas are so useful. They are reasonably lightweight, enegry dense, and can be stored easily. I can not yet imagine a goods train of hundreds of tons being pulled by batteries let alone a passenger plane. You can use pumped water storage to manage supply/demand and storage but its not very portable.
__________________
Cameras: E-M5, E-PM2, OM40, OM4Ti
Lenses (M.Zuiko Digital): 7-14mm/F2.8, 12-40mm/F2.8, 40-150mm/F2.8+TC1.4x, 12-50mm/F3.5-6.3, 14-42mm/F3.5-5.6 EZ, M.ZD 40-150 F4-5.6 R, 75-300mm/F4.8-6.7 Mk1, 12mm/F2, 17mm/F1.8
Lenses (OM Zuiko): 50mm/F1.2, 24mm/F2, 35mm/F2.8 shift
Lenses (OM Fit): Vivitar Series II 28-105mm/F2.8-3.8, Sigma 21-35mm/F3.4-4.2, Sigma 35-70mm/F2.8-4, Sigma 75-200mm/F2.8-3.5, Vivitar Series II 100-500mm/F5.6-8.0, Centon 500mm/F8 Mirror
Learn something new every day
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 11th August 2019
Tram Tram is offline
Full member
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 424
Thanks: 21
Thanked 35 Times in 31 Posts
Likes: 35
Liked 144 Times in 99 Posts
Re: Do We Rely Too Much on Electricity?

Steampunk here we come
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 11th August 2019
Wee man's Avatar
Wee man Wee man is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Newcastle Co. Down N. Ireland
Posts: 8,000
Thanks: 2,392
Thanked 1,155 Times in 1,030 Posts
Likes: 281
Liked 1,234 Times in 804 Posts
Re: Do We Rely Too Much on Electricity?

Clock work cameras with gyros to cut down vibrations?

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk
__________________
Ed

What if the Hokey Cokey is what its all about?
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Electricity prices Dewi9 The lounge 47 22nd October 2013 06:22 PM


All times are GMT. The time now is 02:18 AM.


The Write Technology Ltd, 2007-2019, All rights reservedAd Management plugin by RedTyger