Olympus UK E-System User Group
Olympus UK E-System User Group

Join our unique resource for Olympus Four Thirds E-System DSLR and Pen and OM-D Micro Four Thirds photographers. Show your images via our free e-group photo gallery. Please read the e-group.uk.net forum terms and conditions before posting for the first time. Above all, welcome!


Go Back   Olympus UK E-System User Group > Out of Focus area > The lounge

The lounge Relax, take a break from photo and camera talk - have a chat about something else for a change. Just keep it clean and polite!

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 12th January 2010
Adagio's Avatar
Adagio Adagio is offline
Full member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Marchwood, Hampshire
Posts: 816
Thanks: 49
Thanked 40 Times in 36 Posts
Likes: 78
Liked 68 Times in 37 Posts
Section 44 Stop and Search Illegal?

See today's Guardian report from European Court of Human Rights

I may take a small glass with my lunch
__________________
David


Flickr
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 12th January 2010
JackBenedict
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Section 44 Stop and Search Illegal?

I am not against stop and search by any stretch of the imagination. However what I do object is the heavy handed way the police ( and include the most notorious bunh of all,PCSO's ) appear to be carrying out these searches for no valid reason. They seem to think that any photographer with a camera is a wouldbe terrorist.

It is right and proper that they hopefully get 'a slap in the face' by this judgement. For photographers it has been long overdue,and let us hope that it filters down to all the police forces - because in my own experience not many of them really know how to properly exercise Section 44.

Don't misunderstand me I have some very good friends and contacts within the police departments - but as one police friend told me. Jack - it's 'Targets,Targets,Targets - that's all they want to know, I don't seem to be able to catch the real villians any more'.[sic]
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 12th January 2010
yorky's Avatar
yorky yorky is offline
Full member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Halifax. West Yorkshire
Posts: 1,451
Thanks: 200
Thanked 70 Times in 66 Posts
Likes: 89
Liked 43 Times in 34 Posts
Re: Section 44 Stop and Search Illegal?

Most of the bobbies I see about would be hard put to catch a cold let alone a terrorist. It will be interesting to see how they translate the new EEC ruling. They won't let it go though. they think it justifies their existance.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 12th January 2010
Adagio's Avatar
Adagio Adagio is offline
Full member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Marchwood, Hampshire
Posts: 816
Thanks: 49
Thanked 40 Times in 36 Posts
Likes: 78
Liked 68 Times in 37 Posts
Re: Section 44 Stop and Search Illegal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by yorky View Post
It will be interesting to see how they translate the new EEC ruling.
Yorkie

Sorry to nit-pick but one needs to dispel the oft repeated calumny that that the ECHR is an arm of the EEC. It is no such thing and predates the latter by some margin.

The ECHRs (both Convention and Court) are products of the Council Of Europe, a body first proposed by Winston Churchill in 1946. Britain became a founding member in 1949.

An examination of the press release will reveal that 4 of the 7 judges were from non-EU states and 1 of the other 3 was British! The judgement was unanimous.
__________________
David


Flickr
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 12th January 2010
Zuiko's Avatar
Zuiko Zuiko is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Dunmow, Essex
Posts: 22,271
Thanks: 1,999
Thanked 3,184 Times in 2,488 Posts
Likes: 3,484
Liked 4,546 Times in 2,162 Posts
Re: Section 44 Stop and Search Illegal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adagio View Post
Yorkie

Sorry to nit-pick but one needs to dispel the oft repeated calumny that that the ECHR is an arm of the EEC. It is no such thing and predates the latter by some margin.

The ECHRs (both Convention and Court) are products of the Council Of Europe, a body first proposed by Winston Churchill in 1946. Britain became a founding member in 1949.

An examination of the press release will reveal that 4 of the 7 judges were from non-EU states and 1 of the other 3 was British! The judgement was unanimous.
Unless they can mount a successful appeal the police will have to comply with this ruling. The firm I used to work for once tried to retrospectively change the rules of the pension scheme in a manner that would have considerably disadvantaged all the existing female members. The reason for this was that they were compelled to equalize the terms of the scheme for men and women by equality legislation and, rather than confer extra benefits on the men, they sought to do this by retrospectively removing benefits from the women. They won the ensuing court battles right up to House of Lords level, but these rulings were overturned by the ECHR and the company had to back down by adjusting the benefits upwards for male employees. For me that was a vitally important ruling as without it I would be considerably worse off in retirement than I am. Hooray for the ECHR!

And the police had better now watch their step or they could end up being prosecuted! This ruling alters the balance of power significantly in our favour and is not to be under-estimated!
__________________
John

"A hundredth of a second here, a hundredth of a second there — even if you put them end to end, they still only add up to one, two, perhaps three seconds, snatched from eternity." ~ Robert Doisneau
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 12th January 2010
EH1
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Section 44 Stop and Search Illegal?

This is fantastic news......................................about time!
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 12th January 2010
sapper sapper is offline
Full member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Leigh on Sea, Essex
Posts: 5,129
Thanks: 207
Thanked 462 Times in 263 Posts
Likes: 426
Liked 1,003 Times in 382 Posts
Re: Section 44 Stop and Search Illegal?

Just read your "Back Chat" item in Amateur Photographer John. Nice one!
__________________
Dave
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 12th January 2010
Zuiko's Avatar
Zuiko Zuiko is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Dunmow, Essex
Posts: 22,271
Thanks: 1,999
Thanked 3,184 Times in 2,488 Posts
Likes: 3,484
Liked 4,546 Times in 2,162 Posts
Re: Section 44 Stop and Search Illegal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sapper View Post
Just read your "Back Chat" item in Amateur Photographer John. Nice one!
Thanks, Dave, glad you like it.
__________________
John

"A hundredth of a second here, a hundredth of a second there — even if you put them end to end, they still only add up to one, two, perhaps three seconds, snatched from eternity." ~ Robert Doisneau
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 13th January 2010
Andrew Riddell Andrew Riddell is offline
Full member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: London
Posts: 503
Thanks: 99
Thanked 44 Times in 43 Posts
Likes: 30
Liked 22 Times in 17 Posts
Re: Section 44 Stop and Search Illegal?

As some of you know, I'm a lawyer and, although Human Rights is not my particular field, but having read the ECHR decision in Gillam & Quinton v UK, I would be very surprised if the UK Government didn't run an appeal to the Grand Chamber. I'm not saying it would succeed, but they have so much at stake that I can't imagine they wouldn't try.

All I'm saying is that, although this is a great result, joy may not yet be unconfined!

Andrew
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 13th January 2010
Nick Temple-Fry's Avatar
Nick Temple-Fry Nick Temple-Fry is offline
Full member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Wiltshire
Posts: 4,395
Thanks: 17
Thanked 190 Times in 142 Posts
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times in 5 Posts
Re: Section 44 Stop and Search Illegal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Riddell View Post
As some of you know, I'm a lawyer and, although Human Rights is not my particular field, but having read the ECHR decision in Gillam & Quinton v UK, I would be very surprised if the UK Government didn't run an appeal to the Grand Chamber. I'm not saying it would succeed, but they have so much at stake that I can't imagine they wouldn't try.

All I'm saying is that, although this is a great result, joy may not yet be unconfined!

Andrew
I suspect joy is even more confined than Andrew supposes. This is the dying days of a parliament - it is unlikely that an appeal will be formulated/resolved before the general election.

That will leave any new government the option of

a) doing the right thing and being immediately accused of being
  • soft on terrorism
  • craven to Johnny Foreigner (the European Court)

b) reformulating the legislation with minimal amendment in the hope that the 'new' law might prove legal if eventually challenged.

Unfortunately being a 'free' society is fairly low on electoral priorities, well below beer and educational skittles.

Nick
__________________
Nick Temple-Fry

Medicine as a science ranks somewhere between archaeology and economics.

www.theChurchPhotographer.co.uk 90 Churches -- Fairford St Mary's, exceptionally splendid
www.temple-fry.co.uk
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 13th January 2010
Dick Bowman Dick Bowman is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: N/a
Posts: 124
Thanks: 0
Thanked 7 Times in 6 Posts
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Re: Section 44 Stop and Search Illegal?

My prediction - the police will carry on doing whatever they feel like, occasionally making up excuses along the lines of "we shot him because he was carrying a threatening table leg".
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 13th January 2010
Zuiko's Avatar
Zuiko Zuiko is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Dunmow, Essex
Posts: 22,271
Thanks: 1,999
Thanked 3,184 Times in 2,488 Posts
Likes: 3,484
Liked 4,546 Times in 2,162 Posts
Re: Section 44 Stop and Search Illegal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Bowman View Post
My prediction - the police will carry on doing whatever they feel like
And my prediction: We, as photographers, will continue to go about our lawful business.

If you encounter any problems my advice is to hit them where it hurts. Make a formal complaint. Whether it is upheld or not is irrelevant, the fact is that the amount of extra admin and paperwork this creates will inconvenience the police. If they end up with enough complaints to respond to they will have to change tack - or risk becoming totally ineffective with officers too busy dealing with a mountain of paperwork to venture out on the streets!

And remember, the police are required to have reasonable grounds for suspicion before they can conduct a stop and search or stop and account. If they fail to prove this test your complaint most likely will be upheld.

Useful links:-

http://www.ipcc.gov.uk/index/complaints.htm

https://secure.met.police.uk/complaints/
__________________
John

"A hundredth of a second here, a hundredth of a second there — even if you put them end to end, they still only add up to one, two, perhaps three seconds, snatched from eternity." ~ Robert Doisneau
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 13th January 2010
Adagio's Avatar
Adagio Adagio is offline
Full member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Marchwood, Hampshire
Posts: 816
Thanks: 49
Thanked 40 Times in 36 Posts
Likes: 78
Liked 68 Times in 37 Posts
Re: Section 44 Stop and Search Illegal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zuiko View Post
And remember, the police are required to have reasonable grounds for suspicion before they can conduct a stop and search or stop and account. If they fail to prove this test your complaint most likely will be upheld.
Unfortunately this is not the case if the S&S is carried out under Section 44. That essentially was the ECHR's reason for finding against the UK.

This is primarily a problem for those in London where S44 authorisations have, I believe, been continuously in force for years. I am happy to report that Hampshire's Chief Constable announced a few months ago that he was not going to use S44 again except under circumstances where hard intelligence led him to believe it to be appropriate. I don't know what the situation is in other parts of the country.
__________________
David


Flickr
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 13th January 2010
Zuiko's Avatar
Zuiko Zuiko is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Dunmow, Essex
Posts: 22,271
Thanks: 1,999
Thanked 3,184 Times in 2,488 Posts
Likes: 3,484
Liked 4,546 Times in 2,162 Posts
Re: Section 44 Stop and Search Illegal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adagio View Post
Unfortunately this is not the case if the S&S is carried out under Section 44. That essentially was the ECHR's reason for finding against the UK.

This is primarily a problem for those in London where S44 authorisations have, I believe, been continuously in force for years. I am happy to report that Hampshire's Chief Constable announced a few months ago that he was not going to use S44 again except under circumstances where hard intelligence led him to believe it to be appropriate. I don't know what the situation is in other parts of the country.
You're absolutely right, David, the whole of the Metropolitan Police district has been subject to a rolling program of authorisation for stop and search without any grounds for suspicion since 2001. That makes it all the more disturbing. However, yesterday's ruling will increase the pressure for this to be changed and it is up to us to ensure that the pressure increases until common sense - and justice - prevails.

For what it's worth, I'm personally writing today to the Metropolitan Police Commissioner and the Home Office regarding this matter.
__________________
John

"A hundredth of a second here, a hundredth of a second there — even if you put them end to end, they still only add up to one, two, perhaps three seconds, snatched from eternity." ~ Robert Doisneau
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 13th January 2010
Adagio's Avatar
Adagio Adagio is offline
Full member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Marchwood, Hampshire
Posts: 816
Thanks: 49
Thanked 40 Times in 36 Posts
Likes: 78
Liked 68 Times in 37 Posts
Re: Section 44 Stop and Search Illegal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zuiko View Post
For what it's worth, I'm personally writing today to the Metropolitan Police Commissioner and the Home Office regarding this matter.
I will be interested to hear what response you get John. Perhaps I should try and compose something.

“Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.”
Benjamin Franklin
__________________
David


Flickr
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
620 forum section shenstone Camera conference 1 26th February 2009 10:08 PM
Find this site doing a search on the L10 Bushman Introduce yourself 6 15th November 2008 11:08 PM
Stop and search Ellie The lounge 49 5th November 2008 08:58 PM
F Stop Value Garrie Lens focus 25 29th February 2008 12:13 PM
Search for posts using a picture shenstone Software 0 18th January 2008 08:47 PM


All times are GMT. The time now is 08:36 PM.


© The Write Technology Ltd, 2007-2019, All rights reservedAd Management plugin by RedTyger