Olympus UK E-System User Group
Olympus UK E-System User Group

Join our unique resource for Olympus Four Thirds E-System DSLR and Pen and OM-D Micro Four Thirds photographers. Show your images via our free e-group photo gallery. Please read the e-group.uk.net forum terms and conditions before posting for the first time. Above all, welcome!


Go Back   Olympus UK E-System User Group > Out of Focus area > The lounge

The lounge Relax, take a break from photo and camera talk - have a chat about something else for a change. Just keep it clean and polite!

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #16  
Old 8th December 2014
Naughty Nigel's Avatar
Naughty Nigel Naughty Nigel is offline
Full member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Land of the Prince Bishops
Posts: 10,124
Thanks: 413
Thanked 586 Times in 497 Posts
Likes: 3,491
Liked 2,513 Times in 1,646 Posts
Re: Doomed, the whole World is doomed!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wally View Post
The other thing they both have in common is that they got out of politics before they got thrown out and what is really painful, is that both have ended up with a PM's pension for life.
... which is more than many of us have been left with thanks to Gordon raiding private pension funds for money to buy votes with.

He wouldn't have dared raid public sector pensions, but I doubt that many public service staff, teachers, NHS staff and so forth remember that, otherwise they wouldn't be striking over their (very generous) pensions now.
__________________
---------------

Naughty Nigel


Difficult is worth doing
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 8th December 2014
Simon Bee's Avatar
Simon Bee Simon Bee is offline
Full member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Bridgend, South Wales
Posts: 1,890
Thanks: 143
Thanked 215 Times in 182 Posts
Likes: 425
Liked 308 Times in 195 Posts
Re: Doomed, the whole World is doomed!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Naughty Nigel View Post
... which is more than many of us have been left with thanks to Gordon raiding private pension funds for money to buy votes with.

He wouldn't have dared raid public sector pensions, but I doubt that many public service staff, teachers, NHS staff and so forth remember that, otherwise they wouldn't be striking over their (very generous) pensions now.
I totally agree, "Brown the clown" raided my private plan along with that of every other private sector pension fund, that and the 2008 crash wiped £30k off its value It has picked back up but not that much, about £14k, so I'm still down £16k on its pre 2008 value. I was paying in at a rate that should have provided me with a decent retirement plan at 55 but will now need to pay in the same amount until 65 to even 'hope' to get a similar return and the likelihood is I will work until 70 to actually be sure of a decent pension pot

The problem with the public sector is that they don't know how good they've got it because many if not most have never worked in the private sector, and to add salt to my wounds they whine about their pensions and having to work longer to get them when it is MY taxes ( and everyone else's ) that is paying for it and as far as I am aware not a penny of their tax goes towards my private retirement pot !

Simon
__________________
“Sharpness is a bourgeois concept”
― Henri Cartier-Bresson
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 8th December 2014
Naughty Nigel's Avatar
Naughty Nigel Naughty Nigel is offline
Full member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Land of the Prince Bishops
Posts: 10,124
Thanks: 413
Thanked 586 Times in 497 Posts
Likes: 3,491
Liked 2,513 Times in 1,646 Posts
Re: Doomed, the whole World is doomed!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Bee View Post
I totally agree, "Brown the clown" raided my private plan along with that of every other private sector pension fund, that and the 2008 crash wiped £30k off its value It has picked back up but not that much, about £14k, so I'm still down £16k on its pre 2008 value. I was paying in at a rate that should have provided me with a decent retirement plan at 55 but will now need to pay in the same amount until 65 to even 'hope' to get a similar return and the likelihood is I will work until 70 to actually be sure of a decent pension pot

The problem with the public sector is that they don't know how good they've got it because many if not most have never worked in the private sector, and to add salt to my wounds they whine about their pensions and having to work longer to get them when it is MY taxes ( and everyone else's ) that is paying for it and as far as I am aware not a penny of their tax goes towards my private retirement pot !

Simon
There was a discussion on QT last week (from Doncaster) when two members of the audience, both public sector workers, said they would happily pay more tax to save the NHS.

What they don't seem to get is that not only does the private sector have to pay for their salaries, benefits and pensions, we also have to pay for their taxes and National Insurance!

And when they go on strike for better pensions there are people on much lower salaries with no pensions at all who have to take time off of work to look after children, or otherwise pay for extra childcare.

However, we cannot blame the public sector for these attitudes; we have Brown and Blair to thank for promising unaffordable salaries and pensions in return for votes.
__________________
---------------

Naughty Nigel


Difficult is worth doing
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 8th December 2014
Jim Ford Jim Ford is offline
Full member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Watford, Herts..
Posts: 8,764
Thanks: 480
Thanked 627 Times in 543 Posts
Likes: 2,812
Liked 1,730 Times in 1,112 Posts
Re: Doomed, the whole World is doomed!

ISTRC someone (I think it was the economist Will Hutton) stating that Gordon Brown was the most successful chancellor this country has had since WW2. Again, ISTRC that the 2008 crash was as a result of the American 'sub prime' market collapsing. Brown wasn't the chancellor at the time anyway. Bailing out RBS (a capitalist institution - the 'darling' of the Tories!) was the main cause of the financial crisis.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 8th December 2014
Simon Bee's Avatar
Simon Bee Simon Bee is offline
Full member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Bridgend, South Wales
Posts: 1,890
Thanks: 143
Thanked 215 Times in 182 Posts
Likes: 425
Liked 308 Times in 195 Posts
Re: Doomed, the whole World is doomed!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Ford View Post
ISTRC someone (I think it was the economist Will Hutton) stating that Gordon Brown was the most successful chancellor this country has had since WW2.

Well that's his opinion and one I certainly do not share.

Bailing out RBS ...... It may be a 'British" bank but I do wonder if he would have been so quick to act to save it if it were not 'Scottish' , they ( Labour ) didn't give two-hoots about Northern Rock

I fear RBS will be a mill stone around our necks for decades to come.

Regards, Simon
__________________
“Sharpness is a bourgeois concept”
― Henri Cartier-Bresson
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 9th December 2014
Zuiko's Avatar
Zuiko Zuiko is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Dunmow, Essex
Posts: 22,242
Thanks: 1,998
Thanked 3,181 Times in 2,485 Posts
Likes: 3,474
Liked 4,530 Times in 2,154 Posts
Re: Doomed, the whole World is doomed!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Bee View Post
Well that's his opinion and one I certainly do not share.

Bailing out RBS ...... It may be a 'British" bank but I do wonder if he would have been so quick to act to save it if it were not 'Scottish' , they ( Labour ) didn't give two-hoots about Northern Rock

I fear RBS will be a mill stone around our necks for decades to come.

Regards, Simon
Northern Rock was a relatively minor institution and could be passed as a "one off." I'm not saying that it was right not to intervene but that's how it was.

RBS was a totally different kettle of fish, as the group included Nat West. Allowing that bank to collapse would have been catastrophic, potentially leading to a run on the other major UK banks causing them, too, to fail. Banking capitalisation is based upon the principle of investor confidence and no bank holds enough cash to repay on demand more than a small proportion of its deposits.

I don't think that any government at the time, whether Labour or Conservative, would have had any choice other than to support the banking industry. For the same reason, Lloyds TSB were pressurised by Gordon Brown and Alistar Darling over the course of one weekend into the ill-fated purchase of the Halifax. The debts of the latter turned out to be much bigger than predicted and Lloyds itself had to be bailed out. This led to much unfair public critisism of Lloyds TSB, which prior to the aquisition were rated the safest UK bank and 6th safest in the world.

Perhaps we should be asking what the hell the banks were doing investing in repackaged bundles of the American sub prime mortgage market, which was hardly a traditional part of their business. The simple answer to this is deregulation of the industry during the Thatcher years, designed to increase competition but as an unseen side effect also exposing the banks to extremely risky practices adopted by senior executives under pressure to deliver ever greater (and simply unsustainable) profits. Labour were culpable by having a decade of government in which they should have re-imposed stricter controls on the banking industry but failed to do so.
__________________
John

"A hundredth of a second here, a hundredth of a second there — even if you put them end to end, they still only add up to one, two, perhaps three seconds, snatched from eternity." ~ Robert Doisneau

Last edited by Zuiko; 9th December 2014 at 08:48 AM.
Reply With Quote
The Following Users Liked This Post:
George Dorn (9th December 2014), Jim Ford (9th December 2014)
  #22  
Old 9th December 2014
Naughty Nigel's Avatar
Naughty Nigel Naughty Nigel is offline
Full member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Land of the Prince Bishops
Posts: 10,124
Thanks: 413
Thanked 586 Times in 497 Posts
Likes: 3,491
Liked 2,513 Times in 1,646 Posts
Re: Doomed, the whole World is doomed!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Ford View Post
ISTRC someone (I think it was the economist Will Hutton) stating that Gordon Brown was the most successful chancellor this country has had since WW2. Again, ISTRC that the 2008 crash was as a result of the American 'sub prime' market collapsing. Brown wasn't the chancellor at the time anyway. Bailing out RBS (a capitalist institution - the 'darling' of the Tories!) was the main cause of the financial crisis.
Successful? Successful for who?

If Brown was our most successful Chancellor I would hate to have had an unsuccessful one.

Whatever the facts concerning the banks, it doesn't alter the fact that Labour inherited a strong economy from the Tories in 1987, but then went on to spend tens of billions of pounds more than even Labour could dream of collecting - even though we were in a time of unprecedented boom!

Far from Brown's promises of "no more Tory boom and bust" we were well on our way to financial disaster well before the banking crisis hit, with record levels of public spending and private debt. The banking crisis simply brought matters to a head a little sooner.

Worse still, Brown signed us up to thousands of hugely expensive PFI initiatives in the build of new schools and hospitals, the full cost of which still cannot be calculated.

One such hospital was built near us simply to win a seat for a former Health Minister. Bishop Auckland General Hospital was never needed*, and was never intended to be used as a general hospital. Parts of the building are now used for geriatric care but much of the building and equipment has never been used.

(Co. Durham is sparsely populated and there are plenty of other good hospitals nearby, including Darlington Memorial ten miles away and Dryburn at Durham about twelve miles away.)
__________________
---------------

Naughty Nigel


Difficult is worth doing
Reply With Quote
The Following User Liked This Post:
Simon Bee (9th December 2014)
  #23  
Old 9th December 2014
Jim Ford Jim Ford is offline
Full member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Watford, Herts..
Posts: 8,764
Thanks: 480
Thanked 627 Times in 543 Posts
Likes: 2,812
Liked 1,730 Times in 1,112 Posts
Re: Doomed, the whole World is doomed!

Unfortunately if the electorate allow 'Giddy' Gideon to continue to run the economy after May next year, they're heading for a very rude awakening. By all accounts it's back to the thirties!

Jim
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 9th December 2014
Harold Gough Harold Gough is offline
Full member
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Reading UK
Posts: 5,965
Thanks: 58
Thanked 842 Times in 768 Posts
Likes: 41
Liked 3,378 Times in 1,818 Posts
Re: Doomed, the whole World is doomed!

Brown's financial principles preceeded him.

For decades, employers were legally allowed to take a Pension Holiday when times were good. When company profits were good and the pension fund equity portfolios were peaking in value, the companies could just not pay in their annual employer contribution.

Astoundingly, when the reverse situation came about, the companies had no funds to boost the pension funds. Thus, pension black holes came into being.

Harold
__________________
The body is willing but the mind is weak.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 9th December 2014
Zuiko's Avatar
Zuiko Zuiko is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Dunmow, Essex
Posts: 22,242
Thanks: 1,998
Thanked 3,181 Times in 2,485 Posts
Likes: 3,474
Liked 4,530 Times in 2,154 Posts
Re: Doomed, the whole World is doomed!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Naughty Nigel View Post
Successful? Successful for who?

If Brown was our most successful Chancellor I would hate to have had an unsuccessful one.

Whatever the facts concerning the banks, it doesn't alter the fact that Labour inherited a strong economy from the Tories in 1987, but then went on to spend tens of billions of pounds more than even Labour could dream of collecting - even though we were in a time of unprecedented boom!

Far from Brown's promises of "no more Tory boom and bust" we were well on our way to financial disaster well before the banking crisis hit, with record levels of public spending and private debt. The banking crisis simply brought matters to a head a little sooner.

Worse still, Brown signed us up to thousands of hugely expensive PFI initiatives in the build of new schools and hospitals, the full cost of which still cannot be calculated.

One such hospital was built near us simply to win a seat for a former Health Minister. Bishop Auckland General Hospital was never needed*, and was never intended to be used as a general hospital. Parts of the building are now used for geriatric care but much of the building and equipment has never been used.

(Co. Durham is sparsely populated and there are plenty of other good hospitals nearby, including Darlington Memorial ten miles away and Dryburn at Durham about twelve miles away.)
If you look at the National Debt as a percentage of GDP, Brown did rather well during his tenure as Chancellor from 1997 to 2007: http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/do...ent%20Of%20GDP.

Look what has happened since (remember, the Tories gained power in 2010) http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/sp...Percent_Of_GDP
__________________
John

"A hundredth of a second here, a hundredth of a second there — even if you put them end to end, they still only add up to one, two, perhaps three seconds, snatched from eternity." ~ Robert Doisneau
Reply With Quote
The Following User Liked This Post:
Jim Ford (9th December 2014)
  #26  
Old 9th December 2014
Naughty Nigel's Avatar
Naughty Nigel Naughty Nigel is offline
Full member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Land of the Prince Bishops
Posts: 10,124
Thanks: 413
Thanked 586 Times in 497 Posts
Likes: 3,491
Liked 2,513 Times in 1,646 Posts
Re: Doomed, the whole World is doomed!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Ford View Post
Unfortunately if the electorate allow 'Giddy' Gideon to continue to run the economy after May next year, they're heading for a very rude awakening. By all accounts it's back to the thirties!

Jim
But are the alternatives any better Jim!

We could do much worse than bringing Ken Clarke out of retirement. He seems to speak a lot more sense than most of the others on all sides.

However, I do wish that all sides would grow up and cooperate on matters as important as the economy. Labour was in denial about the state of the economy until they were voted out. They refuse to support any of the coalition's budget cuts but wont' propose any cuts themselves.

What is that all about?
__________________
---------------

Naughty Nigel


Difficult is worth doing
Reply With Quote
The Following User Liked This Post:
Simon Bee (9th December 2014)
  #27  
Old 9th December 2014
Simon Bee's Avatar
Simon Bee Simon Bee is offline
Full member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Bridgend, South Wales
Posts: 1,890
Thanks: 143
Thanked 215 Times in 182 Posts
Likes: 425
Liked 308 Times in 195 Posts
Re: Doomed, the whole World is doomed!

At the end of the day I guess it doesn't matter which party gained power in 2010 or next year for that matter, no party was/is going to turn it around any time soon, this is a problem/burden we are going to be lumbered with for decades. And by 'we' I mean the ordinary working folk of this country of which I class my self as one. All the top politicians no matter which political party they are from are 'extremely well off' and many on both sides of the house are millionaires, it seems that the decisions they take rarely directly effect their pockets, when it all goes pair-shaped and the chickens come home to roost they still have their considerable wealth to help them make ends meet

I agree that RBS are so big that letting them fail would have been a huge risk but therein lies part of the problem...... no single bank should have been allowed to get so large. As much as I dislike Gordon Brown ( for his actions, not as a person ) the pressure he must have been under when RBS started to fail does not bare thinking about, then again I guess that is part and parcel of being P.M. As they say .... "When the going gets tough, the tough get going", problem is from my point of view he was going in the wrong direction.

Simon
__________________
“Sharpness is a bourgeois concept”
― Henri Cartier-Bresson
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 9th December 2014
Chevvyf1's Avatar
Chevvyf1 Chevvyf1 is offline
Full member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Devon, UK
Posts: 12,269
Thanks: 1,744
Thanked 1,281 Times in 1,112 Posts
Likes: 1,169
Liked 522 Times in 392 Posts
Re: Doomed, the whole World is doomed!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Bee View Post
At the end of the day I guess it doesn't matter which party gain ... power

I agree that RBS are so big that letting them fail would have been a huge risk but therein lies part of the problem...... no single bank should have been allowed to get so large. As much as I dislike Gordon Brown ( for his actions, not as a person ) the pressure he must have been under when RBS started to fail does not bare thinking about, then again I guess that is part and parcel of being P.M. As they say .... "When the going gets tough, the tough get going", problem is from my point of view he was going in the wrong direction.

Simon
It is all part of the JOB Simon - but No PM has the track record of a successful CEO of an International PLC which is most likely why we shall always rock from pillar to post - in a storm of economies we are umbilically linked to

and today the "credit card" ethos of "have today and borrow and maybe ? pay back tomorrow" is ingrained in hearts ... like a sword, chaffing the air out us ...

The old fashioned, save for it and pay cash - is almost a thing of the past ... but not here in this house
__________________
.
.
[I].
.
I Lurve Walking in our Glorious Countryside; Photography;
Riding Ducati Motorbikes; Reading & Cooking ! ...


http://www.flickr.com/photos/photomagicf1_chevvy/sets/

the ONE photo album
Reply With Quote
The Following User Liked This Post:
Simon Bee (9th December 2014)
  #29  
Old 9th December 2014
Zuiko's Avatar
Zuiko Zuiko is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Dunmow, Essex
Posts: 22,242
Thanks: 1,998
Thanked 3,181 Times in 2,485 Posts
Likes: 3,474
Liked 4,530 Times in 2,154 Posts
Re: Doomed, the whole World is doomed!

Does the National Debt really matter?

I remember in the 1970's how the economic focus was always on the Balance of Trade deficit. Each month the figures were gravely announced to cries of "We can't go on like this!" Yet when did you last hear the BoT deficit mentioned? Maybe that means good news and the problem has gone away - but no, in September we recorded a record monthly deficit of 2.8 billion and it passed without mention, so I guess it doesn't matter any more.

So could the same be said of the National Debt? Sure, it's high, but as a percentage of GDP it's roughly the same as France, slightly worse than Germany, slightly better than America and less than half of Japan.

Historically it's been much worse. Currently the debt is approximately 90% of GDP but following the Napoleonic Wars it was 260%, in 1919 it was 127% and after WWII it rose to 250%. What this tells us is that we really cannot afford another war, especially not at the moment.

But what if we could magically repay the debt? Pension funds would suddenly lose one of their main markets for investment and be forced to invest in riskier markets at much lower returns. Little old ladies would suddenly receive a cheque for the value of their Premium Bonds, a lump sum that no institution would want and savings rates would probably drop to minus figures.

So debt is good, we just mustn't let it get out of hand. 90% of GDP sounds frightening, but what percentage of household annual income is a typical mortgage?

Anyway, we could simply print money to trim the debt. Yes we could - Sterling is no longer related to gold reserves, yet alone the proverbial two sheep and a goat. But wouldn't that stoke inflation? Actually, repaying debt would have the opposite effect, so we might have to print a little extra to filter into the economy through higher benefits (the most efficient vehicle for distribution) to counteract this effect.

So it's not all doom and gloom, we just need politicians and economists with a little imagination, to think outside the box.
__________________
John

"A hundredth of a second here, a hundredth of a second there — even if you put them end to end, they still only add up to one, two, perhaps three seconds, snatched from eternity." ~ Robert Doisneau
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 9th December 2014
byegad byegad is offline
Full member
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: NE England
Posts: 771
Thanks: 20
Thanked 99 Times in 93 Posts
Likes: 106
Liked 151 Times in 105 Posts
Re: Doomed, the whole World is doomed!

Brown was not personally to blame for USA based banks selling bad debts that they should never had been loaned in the first place. He certainly made several bad mistakes as Chancellor, but at least he did keep us out of the Euro! Blair would have had us in, as would many other pro-Euro MPs from all of the parties. That would have made our issues so much worse.
__________________
Too many cameras!
E-500, E-510, EPM1, EPL5, EP3, EP5, OM-D E M10, OM-D E M5, Trip 35mm, Samsung WP10 and Panasonic G6 plus lots of lenses many manual focus.

Photos at http://www.flickr.com/photos/42941818@N07/
Reply With Quote
The Following User Liked This Post:
Zuiko (9th December 2014)
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Political Threads in the Lounge Zuiko The lounge 54 22nd December 2014 01:36 PM
Political Threads In The Lounge Zuiko The lounge 32 6th February 2014 07:07 PM
Why MFT is doomed - report mike_j The lounge 20 21st January 2014 04:49 PM
Doomed to failure David Morison Foto Fair 3 5th September 2012 08:00 AM
As the political pendulum swings ... jdal Foto Fair 4 12th November 2010 10:07 PM


All times are GMT. The time now is 12:27 PM.


© The Write Technology Ltd, 2007-2019, All rights reservedAd Management plugin by RedTyger