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The lounge Relax, take a break from photo and camera talk - have a chat about something else for a change. Just keep it clean and polite!

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  #16  
Old 28th March 2018
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Re: So much for anti-virus software!

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Originally Posted by wornish View Post
Seems this is another Windows is better than Mac post.

Let me guess which OS you use ?
You tell me? My iPad, which I think is an Apple device is currently running IOS 11.2.6, but has prompted me to install yet another major OS update tonight. That is two in a week! Every update seems to make it run slower, but I gather this is a deliberate policy by Apple to encourage users to upgrade.

I happen to have Windows 8.1 and Windows 10 Laptops, as well as Windows 8.1 desktops and a Windows 12 R2 server and have never been stopped from doing anything owing to updates. You simply tell them to do it when you shut down.

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Windows desktop systems certainly has/had a huge installed base and that isn't going away, but please don't blanket criticise users of other systems as all being unaware of security issues.
I personally know several Apple Mac users who honestly believe their systems are infallible and will not be persuaded otherwise. It is almost like a cult following. But that is not just my opinion; the whole IT industry is becoming increasingly concerned about the blasť attitude of Apple Mac users to security issues.
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  #17  
Old 28th March 2018
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Re: So much for anti-virus software!

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Originally Posted by Naughty Nigel View Post
You tell me? My iPad, which I think is an Apple device is currently running IOS 11.2.6, but has prompted me to install yet another major OS update tonight. That is two in a week! Every update seems to make it run slower, but I gather this is a deliberate policy by Apple to encourage users to upgrade.

But that is not just my opinion; the whole IT industry is becoming increasingly concerned about the blasť attitude of Apple Mac users to security issues.


As I said Mac. systems simply tell you an update is available .
Windows systems force you to update, either overnight or when you power on. Whilst this is happening your system is effectively unusable.


Re your second point : please explain or provide links where the "whole IT industry" is concerned about Mac users being blasť. Think you are being a bit "Naughty"

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  #18  
Old 29th March 2018
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Re: So much for anti-virus software!

Why say it with words when you can say it with pictures?

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Old 29th March 2018
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Re: So much for anti-virus software!

Since the last major update I've found Windows 10 to be less annoying. True, if I don't use a machine for a few days it will take a while to sort itself out but the dreaded "Windows modules installer worker" doesn't sit using 50% cpu and 99% disk for hours so often now. The old Dell I'm writing this on has Win10 Professional and I've been able to turn off a lot of the background processes that hamstring the Home Edition. The main issue I have with 10 versus the older editions is that, at least with the Home Edition, you have no choice when to install updates. If it decides to update itself when you shut the system down you simply have to wait till it's finished. The older versions gave you the choice to "install updates and shut down" or "shut down anyway".

If I want something to be usable within seconds of switch-on I fire up my Raspberry Pi .
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Old 29th March 2018
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Re: So much for anti-virus software!

I am just a user of Windows 10, but for the last 12 months or so, the system does give you an option to update later, at a time convenient to yourself.

I just let it get on with it and go and make a cuppa.

But in early W10 days, there was no choice. Exceedingly irritating if you are at work, or need to do an urgent task.

Re virus protection, I use the Windows Defender. It has caught one virus and sorted it. No idea where it came from.............
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Old 29th March 2018
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Re: So much for anti-virus software!

Quote:
Originally Posted by wornish View Post
As I said Mac. systems simply tell you an update is available .
Windows systems force you to update, either overnight or when you power on. Whilst this is happening your system is effectively unusable.


You claimed
Without wishing to encourage the W v IOS debate as it will go nowhere I do feel obligated to comment on this remark.

I have run Windows for decades and I have never been forced to update in the way you describe and been unable to use my machine. It may download in the background but I have my machines configured such that I allow the update at a time of my choosing. Typically this is on close down when by definition I'm not using it anyway and it does it's thing and then shuts down. Occasionally the subsequent startup is a little slower but rarely such that it is a problem. Equally I sometimes let it do it now and reboot whilst I do one of the many other tasks I have to do. The point is I control it.

As for anti virus software I gave up on Kasperski some time ago when logic led me to the conclusion that having Russian software to check for malware etc. was odd. I now use Windows Defender on all machines and despite the many sites visited of all types I have no problems. Norton etc. are themselves a problem as they are so invasive and have an impact on machine operation to such an extent that I almost regard them as malware in themselves.

As Paul said the real key is to be aware of what's in emails and sites and not to click on stuff you are unsure about. It is not certain this will stop nasties appearing but it will go a substantial way towards it.

All operating systems are potentially vulnerable if the unpleasant people out there choose to target them. We just have to be realistic about that and take precautions as we each deem to be appropriate for our particular circumstances.


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Old 29th March 2018
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Re: So much for anti-virus software!

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Originally Posted by Grumpy Hec View Post
I have run Windows for decades and I have never been forced to update in the way you describe and been unable to use my machine. It may download in the background but I have my machines configured such that I allow the update at a time of my choosing. Typically this is on close down when by definition I'm not using it anyway and it does it's thing and then shuts down. Occasionally the subsequent startup is a little slower but rarely such that it is a problem. Equally I sometimes let it do it now and reboot whilst I do one of the many other tasks I have to do. The point is I control it.

........


Hec

I didn't start the Windows vs Mac debate I simply replied to the post declaring all Mac users were blasť about security. I also dont want to add to the flames as I agree it goes nowhere.

What kind of system do you run windows on, a fairly powerful desktop ?

If you use it on a basic laptop as I do it can take over an hour before you can do anything meaningful while it updates after being powered off and I am not exaggerating. I use mine solely for astrophotagraphy apps to control my telescope and take pictures using Olympus Capture which it does really well. I have to make sure its powered up at least an hour before I actually want to use it to get all the update processes out of the way which is a real pain.
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  #23  
Old 29th March 2018
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Re: So much for anti-virus software!

Win 10 has settled down into a mature and stable system. Updates can be a problem when they happen at the wrong time. Win 10 Pro gives a lot more control if you want to spend the extra money for it.

Traditional "anti-virus" is a busted flush. Social engineering is the biggest problem - inducing people to open email attachments or other innocent looking items which do nasty things. Macs are equally open to this sort of attack.

Ransomware and its variants are a big threat. Finding that all your photos have been encrypted despite your foolproof backup system is not good. Sometimes it will make your hard drive unusable. After a lot of research, I use Emsisoft Anti-Malware which looks for unexpected behaviour on the machine and (hopefully) intercepts it before it can do any damage. It also does the usual AV stuff like blocking suspicious websites.

I don't think that saying "I'm very sensible and it won't happen to me" is a good option.
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  #24  
Old 29th March 2018
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Re: So much for anti-virus software!

My Windows laptop takes about six seconds to boot from cold and any updates can be applied at shutdown. Installing updates usually takes a minute or two at most unless it is a major update which might take ten minutes or so.

If your laptop spends two hours installing updates every time you switch it on then something is badly wrong.

BTW, I updated my Apple iPad last night as requested. I started the update just before News at Ten. It was still updating when I nodded off during 'A Question of Sport'.
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Old 29th March 2018
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Re: So much for anti-virus software!

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Originally Posted by Johnheatingman View Post
We have 3 basic Win10 laptops and the windows OS is slightly different on all 3. They do however all provide the option to either "shut down" or "update and shut down" when switching off.
I have never seen that option on any of my three Win10 machines! If I click on the Windows logo and then choose the on/off button above it, the only options I ever see are sleep, shut down or restart. Then when I choose shut down, occasionally I get the "Getting Windows Ready" message when updates are ready to install and I can't power the machine down until it's finished. This usually happens when I'm in a hurry to go out .

The local computer expert has noted in our local newsletter today that there is a bug in a recent update that causes machines to continually attempt to install it, slowing them down. She says if you click on Updates and Security and see "2018-02 Cumulative update for Windows 10 version 1709" and "restart required" then that is why your machine is running slowly. As a temporary fix tell Windows that you are on a metered connection.

Nigel - if your laptop boots in six seconds I am amazed! Are you sure it had actually shut down and not simply gone to sleep? Mind you if it never takes more than ten minutes to install an update I have to assume it has a 100GHz cpu and a solid state hard drive .
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  #26  
Old 29th March 2018
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Re: So much for anti-virus software!

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Nigel - if your laptop boots in six seconds I am amazed! Are you sure it had actually shut down and not simply gone to sleep?
It definitely shuts down. It does have a SSD hard drive though which makes a big difference.

I don't use the Sleep option because the built in 4G internet can keep running when you don't want it to.

I accept that is a problem that MacBook users will never suffer.
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Old 29th March 2018
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Re: So much for anti-virus software!

Ah yes, an SSD would make it a lot quicker. My three all have spinning discs which are usually at 100% usage for several minutes after boot, running Antimalware and Superfetch services mostly. My tiny Intel Atom machine was virtually useless for an hour after booting until the last big update, now it's almost as usable as it was when running Windows 7.
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Old 30th March 2018
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Re: So much for anti-virus software!

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Originally Posted by Otto View Post
I have never seen that option on any of my three Win10 machines! If I click on the Windows logo and then choose the on/off button above it, the only options I ever see are sleep, shut down or restart. Then when I choose shut down, occasionally I get the "Getting Windows Ready" message when updates are ready to install and I can't power the machine down until it's finished. This usually happens when I'm in a hurry to go out .

The local computer expert has noted in our local newsletter today that there is a bug in a recent update that causes machines to continually attempt to install it, slowing them down. She says if you click on Updates and Security and see "2018-02 Cumulative update for Windows 10 version 1709" and "restart required" then that is why your machine is running slowly. As a temporary fix tell Windows that you are on a metered connection.

Nigel - if your laptop boots in six seconds I am amazed! Are you sure it had actually shut down and not simply gone to sleep? Mind you if it never takes more than ten minutes to install an update I have to assume it has a 100GHz cpu and a solid state hard drive .

You need to go into Windows settings and then to the Update section where you will find various options for ongoing update control. I suspect it is there which enables the options to appear in the close down button if an update has been downloaded. I always works for me.

Regarding the startup & shutdown times I share Nigel's experience as my start up is a few seconds with an even quicker shutdown. It has to be said that I have built a new machine optimised for image processing so I'm not short of pure grunt. One important factor as well is that because I built my own machine with vanilla software I do not have all the rubbish and bloatware that OEMs put on which can have a detrimental effect on overall performance.

My old work provided machines were slower, worse I ever had was about 5 minutes, but that was because the CFO refused to allow expenditure on decent spec machines even though we were a software company and we spent ages on old machines. Shortage of RAM and slow disks are the two biggest issues. When he did see the light and got 16GB Ram machines it was a revelation. Windows also had a tendency to get slower with age, as do most OS in reality, and a full rebuild can often bring a significant improvement.

The update you refer to did not cause the problems you describe on my machine. Purely by coincidence I have installed the next one this morning which took about 1 minute including the restart.

Hec
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Old 30th March 2018
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Re: So much for anti-virus software!

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My Windows laptop takes about six seconds to boot from cold and any updates can be applied at shutdown.
My Surface laptop does not take much longer............
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Old 30th March 2018
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Re: So much for anti-virus software!

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Ah yes, an SSD would make it a lot quicker. My three all have spinning discs which are usually at 100% usage for several minutes after boot, running Antimalware and Superfetch services mostly. My tiny Intel Atom machine was virtually useless for an hour after booting until the last big update, now it's almost as usable as it was when running Windows 7.
This is a persistant problem and not just on boot. It actually happens on logging in (including switching users). The disk usage hits 100% for several minutes. My machine (Win 8.1) has enought grunt that it doesn't slow me down much but its still a pain.

On modern windows machines the default configuration is not to shut down fully, hence turning it on does not do a cold restart. Enough information is saved on shutdown that a UEFI boot can fast track the startup up. The "restart" option on the shutdown menu does however do a fuller shutdown than the "shutdown" menu.
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