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  #16  
Old 15th June 2015
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Re: Is this the Thin Edge of the Wedge? :(

We were all encouraged on diesel, now we are being slammed for it. Though the average car user in Islington is likely to be fairly well off it penalises those who cannot afford a new(er) car. A disappointing move on the council's part and something that should not be lawful to instigate. The should as rightly pointed out above be looking at emissions from modern diesels, nitrogen oxides, nasties and the particulate matter rather than making sweeping slaps. Euro 3-6 have made leaps and bounds and cover everything from late 90s diesels, with significant increments of cleanliness between them in all emissions.

If they would take notice of the buses and taxis and all the PM10/PM2s that they chuck out you could solve London's pollution problem quickly rather than penalising the average owner. We are years off an electric taxi fleet and 2.5 litre non-turbo diesel is an unacceptable engine for a modern black cab. Moreso, the should be hammering on the manufactures, Wrights and Manganese Bronze (or whoever makes LTC cars these days) to develop better engines and drive trains rather than reducing fuel economy by applying more choking filters. Guess who picks up the fuel bill through the Bus Service Operators Grant...

I'm not supporting electric as the complete solution, it just shifts pollution away from point of use which is the key driver here.
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Old 15th June 2015
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Re: Is this the Thin Edge of the Wedge? :(

Just walk. Much better for you than sitting in a vehicle, fuming over road works, accidents causing holdups ETC, just walk
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Old 15th June 2015
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Re: Is this the Thin Edge of the Wedge? :(

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Just walk. Much better for you than sitting in a vehicle, fuming over road works, accidents causing holdups ETC, just walk
But whilst you are walking in Islington your diesel car is costing more to park and not use! You might as well be driving it, that's the whole point!
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Old 15th June 2015
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Re: Is this the Thin Edge of the Wedge? :(

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But whilst you are walking in Islington your diesel car is costing more to park and not use! You might as well be driving it, that's the whole point!
Sorry, I did not make it clear, get rid of the motor, and just walk. Why anyone in London needs a motor I don't know, buses, tubes, much better. But, walking is best.
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Old 15th June 2015
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Re: Is this the Thin Edge of the Wedge? :(

If the authorities in London are so concerned about air quality why did they ever get rid of trolley buses? And trams for that matter?

A lot of Italian cities still use trolley buses, but many of their buses have a diesel engine as well so they can operate outside of areas with overhead cables; and presumably in the event of a power failure.
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Old 15th June 2015
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Re: Is this the Thin Edge of the Wedge? :(

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But whilst you are walking in Islington your diesel car is costing more to park and not use! You might as well be driving it, that's the whole point!
Surely, decisions like this should be made by central government, or at least by elected regional assemblies.

What if (say) Islington decides to ban diesel vehicles, and (say) Blackwall, Rotherhythe and Dartford decide to ban petrol vehicles from using their tunnels (which actually makes far more sense from a safety point of view), how would you get from one to the other?
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Old 15th June 2015
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Re: Is this the Thin Edge of the Wedge? :(

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Originally Posted by Naughty Nigel View Post
If the authorities in London are so concerned about air quality why did they ever get rid of trolley buses? And trams for that matter?

A lot of Italian cities still use trolley buses, but many of their buses have a diesel engine as well so they can operate outside of areas with overhead cables; and presumably in the event of a power failure.
There are still trams in Wimbledon. Trams and trolleys bring about their own set of problems when compared to buses. Whilst they are mainly diesel, I believe that we are better with them from a flexibility point of view. There are plenty of moves away from pure diesel (now many diesel electric like the new Routemaster) which is a slow improvement

And don't forget the tube and DLR are both electric. Both powered courtesy of our friends in France, from nice clean nuclear energy.
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Old 15th June 2015
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Re: Is this the Thin Edge of the Wedge? :(

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And don't forget the tube and DLR are both electric. Both powered courtesy of our friends in France, from nice clean nuclear energy.
....... Or the dirty, coal fired power stations of East Yorkshire!
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  #24  
Old 15th June 2015
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Re: Is this the Thin Edge of the Wedge? :(

Na, I guarantee you it's all bought from EDF.
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Old 15th June 2015
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Re: Is this the Thin Edge of the Wedge? :(

Unlike CO2 emissions which are a global, long-term problem, nitrogen dioxide emissions from Diesel engines kill people in the local area, and parking charges would appear to be the only lever a local council has to provide a disincentive for people driving Diesel cars.

The science over just how damaging NO2 emissions from diesel engines are is relatively recent, so blaming politicians for their about-turn on Diesel is not really called for. It is possible to reduce NO2 emissions from Diesel engines via selective catalytic reduction, but that is expensive. One way to promote it would be to make the most polluting vehicles more expensive to run.

Also, it may be unfortunate for those people who own a Diesel car - however, that hardly justifies continuing to drive it and society to suffer the consequences, both in terms of increased mortality and associated health care costs. There is no "grandfathered" right to smoke in your local pub, just because you happened to buy lots of cigarettes before the ban came into effect, even if you bought them before second-hand smoke was proven to be carcinogenic. Today, in London, Diesel emissions from cars probably cause more deaths than second-hand smoke.

Of course, if Diesel cars (or at least those without selective catalytic reduction) are to be taken off the streets, the same should be true for buses and delivery vehicles that emit high levels of NO2.
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Old 16th June 2015
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Re: Is this the Thin Edge of the Wedge? :(

These higher parking charges for Diesel are only temporary until the city Diesel ban comes into force. It's the same with the higher congestion charge.

You'll find outlawed Diesel drivers huddling together outside the Congestion charge zone, revving their engines.

Read here about how NO2 is now good for you again.
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Old 16th June 2015
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Re: Is this the Thin Edge of the Wedge? :(

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Originally Posted by Querfeldein View Post
Unlike CO2 emissions which are a global, long-term problem, nitrogen dioxide emissions from Diesel engines kill people in the local area, and parking charges would appear to be the only lever a local council has to provide a disincentive for people driving Diesel cars.

The science over just how damaging NO2 emissions from diesel engines are is relatively recent, so blaming politicians for their about-turn on Diesel is not really called for. It is possible to reduce NO2 emissions from Diesel engines via selective catalytic reduction, but that is expensive. One way to promote it would be to make the most polluting vehicles more expensive to run.

Also, it may be unfortunate for those people who own a Diesel car - however, that hardly justifies continuing to drive it and society to suffer the consequences, both in terms of increased mortality and associated health care costs. There is no "grandfathered" right to smoke in your local pub, just because you happened to buy lots of cigarettes before the ban came into effect, even if you bought them before second-hand smoke was proven to be carcinogenic. Today, in London, Diesel emissions from cars probably cause more deaths than second-hand smoke.

Of course, if Diesel cars (or at least those without selective catalytic reduction) are to be taken off the streets, the same should be true for buses and delivery vehicles that emit high levels of NO2.
OK, it may not be the politician's fault but it isn't the consumer's fault either. What do you want us diesel drivers to do, just scrap our cars? The richest in our society may be able to do that and buy a petrol powered replacement, but for me that would mean doing without a car at all. If I lived in London that might well be an option, but where I live in the rural "wilds" of Essex (it's 3 miles to the nearest shop and the bus service is extremely limited) it's just not practical.

I do care about our environment and worry about its future, but I can't help what I am. Unfortunately it's Humanity's destiny to cause our own extinction, it's in our DNA and it will happen. Obviously it's in our own interests to delay that for as long as possible, but I firmly reject the notion that the right to pollute should be decided by economic factors, favouring the wealthiest people with the deepest pockets.

Let me ask this; if diesel is now proven to be so harmful in comparison to petrol, why don't the Government ban the production of any further vehicles powered by this type of fuel? Within a decade or two the problem would solve itself.

You mention smoking as an analogy. I have long thought that the best way to squeeze smoking totally out of our culture would be to raise the minimum age for smoking by one year, every year. I can guarantee that in twenty years time there would not be many 38 year olds starting to smoke for the first time.

So diesel and tobacco, why isn't the Government taking these simple steps to a practical solution in either case? Could it be the behind the scenes power and influence of the multinational oil and tobacco industries? We all know that not only does money talk, it also dictates government policy throughout the World, usually to the detriment of the people, the planet and everything else.

So maybe the real evil is money and that's what we should ban, in search of an enlightened Lennonesque utopia. Imagine a world in which we all acted together, without the motives of greed and profit, to find the best solutions to our problems regardless of economic constraints.

But that ain't going to happen, is it? Instead we are all going to Hell in a handcart so we might as well get used to the idea. Just don't make the little guy bear the brunt of it all along the way.
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  #28  
Old 16th June 2015
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Re: Is this the Thin Edge of the Wedge? :(

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Originally Posted by ian p View Post
These higher parking charges for Diesel are only temporary until the city Diesel ban comes into force. It's the same with the higher congestion charge.

You'll find outlawed Diesel drivers huddling together outside the Congestion charge zone, revving their engines.

Read here about how NO2 is now good for you again.
Thanks for that interesting link, Ian, it shows that the case against diesel has not been proven by any means.
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Old 16th June 2015
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Re: Is this the Thin Edge of the Wedge? :(

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Originally Posted by Querfeldein View Post
Also, it may be unfortunate for those people who own a Diesel car - however, that hardly justifies continuing to drive it and society to suffer the consequences, both in terms of increased mortality and associated health care costs. There is no "grandfathered" right to smoke in your local pub, just because you happened to buy lots of cigarettes before the ban came into effect, even if you bought them before second-hand smoke was proven to be carcinogenic.
Grandfathered rights on £10 pack of cigarettes vs. an usual investment of thousands of pounds in a car is very different. Hardly comparing apples with apples here... And whilst I agree about making cars cleaner (I'm a diesel driver, have all the emissions control in place, a remap and run fuel additive to clean up all the nasties) its hard not to see people punished for making a choice on cheap tax and mileage benefits that everyone was peddled. Also we need to consider the whole environmental cost. Its much cheaper overall in impact for me to cover 200k miles in my car than to buy a new one every year, even if it is more efficient. Producing all those batteries in a Prius is catastrophic to the environment for the 150k miles or so that they are good for. Plus of course we have to pollute greatly to develop and produce a car. If its electric, it is only so at point of use.

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Originally Posted by Querfeldein View Post
Today, in London, Diesel emissions from cars probably cause more deaths than second-hand smoke.
I'd be interested in the statistics of removing all black cabs, London Buses and "private hire vehicles" would have on pollutant levels in the city. Perhaps I should commission a study or gain access to the outputs of all bus engine types used...

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Originally Posted by Querfeldein View Post
Of course, if Diesel cars (or at least those without selective catalytic reduction) are to be taken off the streets, the same should be true for buses and delivery vehicles that emit high levels of NO2.
Buses and taxis are regulated in London, perhaps not as heavily as we'd like (age restrictions do apply, you can't blanket all this overnight) but they must comply with Euro X standards which get tougher in every iteration. Diesel cars are produced to the same standards.

Whilst a catalytic converter is required on a petrol car for an MOT, because of the way a diesel is tested, they can pass without any emissions control whatsoever - no cat, no DPF, no EGR or silencer if the owner chooses. All that is considered is a visual inspection, but that doesn't stop people (and companies) offering mufflerectomy, EGR deletes and DPF "cleansing".

Food for thought.
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Old 16th June 2015
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Re: Is this the Thin Edge of the Wedge? :(

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Originally Posted by Zuiko View Post
Thanks for that interesting link, Ian, it shows that the case against diesel has not been proven by any means.
Well, the provenance of that information is the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders, who are as mired in self-interest as the Tobacco industry ever was.

Personally I'll be sticking to the medical and public health science.
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