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Olympus OM-D E-M1 The first Micro Four Thirds camera that offers phase detect focusing so you can use Four Thirds DSLR lenses normally as well a Micro Four Thirds lenses.

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  #31  
Old 6th November 2013
photo_owl photo_owl is offline
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Re: Live time black dots

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Originally Posted by Ian View Post
Does Noise Reduction make any difference (dark frame subtraction).

Ian
NR is on (by default)

I would expect to see a few 'bright spots' without it, but will check
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  #32  
Old 6th November 2013
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Re: Live time black dots

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Originally Posted by Ian View Post
I think you said that pixel mapping didn't make a difference so it's probably an image processing glitch rather than stuck pixels.

Ian
Yes that's right there was no change. If it is an image processing glitch then it is having very many of them during one frame. I am hoping that this turns out to be a coding bug fixed by a new release of firmware. But now that we have seen that it is not just specific to my camera lets hope Olympus take this issue and investigate it.

Am I being too fussy when pixel peeping. I had some friends come round this afternoon and I showed them the lake picture on my TV. They did not see the black dots until I pointed them out then they could see them. At x 2 they were clearly visible.
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Old 6th November 2013
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Re: Live time black dots

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Originally Posted by andym View Post
Yes it's got to be, my examples are raw out of the camera not converted to jpeg in camera. If I run them through my normal workflow there's no dots, if I convert them to jpegs in Viewer I get the dots as shown earlier.
I haven't tried converting a raw to jpeg in camera to see what happens. I might try later.
I shot RAW + jpeg and the jpeg is identical to the Viewer rendered orf in this situation ie same dot's magnitude and position.

My shot was a slab of marble, and there were no large darker areas ie it was pretty flat with small local changes. Probably about 10-15 black dots on the frame reasonably evely, but randomly, distributed.

Same camera settings, same position and exposure but with a cyclemen in front got me 2 dots total (that I could find when I went back and looked again;harder....)

not a cause of worry for me, but interesting none the less
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  #34  
Old 6th November 2013
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Re: Live time black dots

My last test, if you convert an ORF shot using livetime to a digital negative with DNG converter and then open it in photoshop(I assume LR would be the same)there are no dots.Just like my Silkypix conversion.
To me it points at something Viewer is doing.
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Old 6th November 2013
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Re: Live time black dots

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Originally Posted by andym View Post
My last test, if you convert an ORF shot using livetime to a digital negative with DNG converter and then open it in photoshop(I assume LR would be the same)there are no dots.Just like my Silkypix conversion.
To me it points at something Viewer is doing.
I do not have DNG converter or photoshop. I would guess that photoshop is doing some hidden processing (removing black dots) and that's why you do not see them. The software that is supplied with the camera is Viewer 3.

Anyway I see the black dots on the OM1 screen when viewing so its not related to post camera software processing.

Thanks for your work on this Andy but I think we should wait and see what Olympus has to say now.
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Re: Live time black dots

Ahh, but what you see on the screen is a jpeg after decoding in the camera.

By the way DNG converter is free if you want to try it. I think both LR and Photoshop use ACR so there should be no difference.I can see the blobs with the conversion from Viewer but not with my other methods and am only using Photoshop to resize it for web.

I'll be interested if you get any meaningful response for Oly support.
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Re: Live time black dots

FWIW I have for some time been of the opinion that the Viewer software is essentially the same as the in-camera raw conversion firmware. The results of Andy's tests to me confirm this view.

From this I would conclude that your "black dot" problem is due to the camera firmware/Viewer software creating them rather than other raw conversion programmes removing them.

Regards.
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Re: Live time black dots

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Originally Posted by PeterBirder View Post
FWIW I have for some time been of the opinion that the Viewer software is essentially the same as the in-camera raw conversion firmware. The results of Andy's tests to me confirm this view.

From this I would conclude that your "black dot" problem is due to the camera firmware/Viewer software creating them rather than other raw conversion programmes removing them.

Regards.
Well I do hope you are right. As it appears that you get these with the EM5 that does seem to add to your thinking.

Thanks to everyone for contributing on this I will keep you informed of any progress I get from Olympus tech support.

John
Ps I still think this is great little camera with great potential for some very creative photography.
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Re: Live time black dots

Quote:
Originally Posted by andym View Post
Ahh, but what you see on the screen is a jpeg after decoding in the camera.

By the way DNG converter is free if you want to try it. I think both LR and Photoshop use ACR so there should be no difference.I can see the blobs with the conversion from Viewer but not with my other methods and am only using Photoshop to resize it for web.

I'll be interested if you get any meaningful response for Oly support.
Did not understand this the first time round but have downloaded the DNG converter taken some more raw pics converted them into DNG and then imported them into LR4.4 and guess what no black dots. Viewed the raw file in Viewer guess what black dots.

So Peter it looks like you are right the in camera jpg conversion looks to be the same as Viewer 3.

My advice for now then for those wanting to use livetime is to use raw files and do not use Viewer 3 to process them until Olympus fix this.
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  #40  
Old 9th December 2013
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Re: Live time black dots

An Update which may be of interest to others taken longish shutter times.

As a recap I started this thread because I took firework display shots with NR ON circa 6 secs in LSF only (no raw) and on some of my pictures I got many black dots. I was able to reproduce this effect in my study.

I have been in contact with Olympus helpline with emailing them my files.

What I have now been finding is that with the new firmware 1.1 when I took raw + LSF I could not repeat the black dots in either file. But if I turned NR OFF I got black dots in the LSF jpeg but not the raw file! More testing and I got black dots in raw + LF but not with raw + LN! I asked Olympus about this;

"This is the other file taken at 13 secs (PB281456.jpg) (attached) which was taken RAW + LSF with NR off. The raw file shows no black dots but this LSF shows black dots. This was taken to show that taken with the same shutter speed and at RAW +LSF you get black dots in the jpeg but not the raw. Showing to me that there is a problem with the camera jpeg process adding black dots.

Does this make sense or can Olympus explain this
?"


Their reply is clear enough but does not make sense to me;

"Yes this is normal. In order to eliminate black dots you need to switch the NR on. With NR off the LSF will show black dots."


So it seems that it is normal to get black dots with the LSF file with NR OFF. I have to then question what's the point of shooting raw + LSF or even using just LSF for long exposures. I have now changed my setting when needed to shoot raw + LN (although I have gone back to shooting in raw only mostly) as this seems to get round the problem.

Its not the answer I wanted and I doubt I can trust shooting in LSF or LF alone.

I also have left the NR in Auto but Olympus have not told me (despite being asked) at what shutter speed the black frame subtraction kicks in.

Not sure if this will help anyone but I thought I would share the answer.
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Re: Live time black dots

Thanks for sharing this, John but it does sound rather random and lacking a definitive explanation. Sorry that it's still not resolved but it does seem to underline the complexity of camea software, no wonder I'm often baffled. At least you now seem to have a work-around.
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