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Camera conference General and model-specific E-System camera chat.

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Old 9th March 2008
Jim Ford Jim Ford is offline
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Thoughts on SSWF (formerly: Thoughts on SWD.)

For lack of any other criticism of SWD, reviewers frequently seize on the 'long' start-up time from switch-on - often quoted as 1.6 seconds on the E3. Quite honestly this has never been an issue for me. If I switched on at waist level and brought the camera to my eye, ready to press the release button in less than 1.6 seconds, I would be in real danger of knocking my front teeth out with my E3! Perhaps those non-Olympus people for whom sub 1.6 seconds start-up is essential wear gumshields!

The other point is that of 'clean at start-up' or 'clean at switch -off'. You have to question the camera manufacturers' technical judgement who opt for 'clean at switch-off' - they seem to have lost the plot completely! I'm not in the least bit interested if the camera sensor is clean when I switch the camera off to put it in the bag, I want it clean when I switch on to start taking photographs. To my mind, cleaning at switch-off is like wiping your bum _before_ going to the toilet!

Argue with me, someone!

Jim
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Old 9th March 2008
ianc ianc is offline
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Re: Thoughts on SWD.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Ford View Post
For lack of any other criticism of SWD, reviewers frequently seize on the 'long' start-up time from switch-on - often quoted as 1.6 seconds on the E3. Quite honestly this has never been an issue for me. If I switched on at waist level and brought the camera to my eye, ready to press the release button in less than 1.6 seconds, I would be in real danger of knocking my front teeth out with my E3! Perhaps those non-Olympus people for whom sub 1.6 seconds start-up is essential wear gumshields!

The other point is that of 'clean at start-up' or 'clean at switch -off'. You have to question the camera manufacturers' technical judgement who opt for 'clean at switch-off' - they seem to have lost the plot completely! I'm not in the least bit interested if the camera sensor is clean when I switch the camera off to put it in the bag, I want it clean when I switch on to start taking photographs. To my mind, cleaning at switch-off is like wiping your bum _before_ going to the toilet!

Argue with me, someone!

Jim
O.K. if you want an argument. You are totally wrong, there is not one of your arguments that stand up to the slightest scrutiny.
SWD is the sonic wave drive, in other words the focus motor in the new lenses not the SSWF which is the sensor cleaning system. So sorry Jim but you are just plane wrong.

Well you said you wanted an argument.

Ian C.
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Old 9th March 2008
Jim Ford Jim Ford is offline
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Re: Thoughts on SWD.

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Originally Posted by ianc View Post
O.K. if you want an argument. You are totally wrong, there is not one of your arguments that stand up to the slightest scrutiny.
SWD is the sonic wave drive, in other words the focus motor in the new lenses not the SSWF which is the sensor cleaning system. So sorry Jim but you are just plane wrong.

Well you said you wanted an argument.

Ian C.
Yeah, yeah yeah - you're right of course - except it's _plain_, not plane!
;^)

Jim
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Old 9th March 2008
Scapula Memory
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Re: Thoughts on SWD.

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Originally Posted by Jim Ford View Post
To my mind, cleaning at switch-off is like wiping your bum _before_ going to the toilet!

Argue with me, someone!

Jim
Well technically speaking if you wipe your bum before going to the toilet you are cleaning it before it gets dirty, or like sensor cleaning at start up possibly cleaning away older smears of the brown stuff that were not cleaned at switch off, or the last visit to the toilet.

Morrisons have a good deal on Andrex at the moment, 18 rolls for the price of 12 meaning you Jim can wipe your bum before and after the toilet. What luxury!

OK not quite the argument you wanted, I am feeling a bit flushed.....cue lots of toilet jokes.....
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Old 9th March 2008
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Re: Thoughts on SWD.

I renamed the thread to reflect the current discussions - avoids confusion
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Old 9th March 2008
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Re: Thoughts on SWD.

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Originally Posted by Scapula Memory View Post
Morrisons have a good deal on Andrex at the moment, 18 rolls for the price of 12 meaning you Jim can wipe your bum before and after the toilet. What luxury!

OK not quite the argument you wanted, I am feeling a bit flushed.....cue lots of toilet jokes.....
Is that quilted though Needs to be be if your wiping before and after, think of the chafage (sic) lol
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Old 9th March 2008
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Re: Thoughts on SSWF (formerly: Thoughts on SWD.)

Trying to move the conversation level up a little.

I think Jim makes a valid point about the switch on speed. I don't think SLR cameras should be fired like shotguns (lifted from the hip and fired on the move). I have never been frustrated by the switch on speed. The focussing speed is usually slower and I only lose an action shot when the lens won't hold focus and needs to go to infinity and back. I am sure taking a picture is faster than my OM2 - not that I have ever timed that.

Technical specs are usually meaningless. I prefer features which provide a benefit and the sswf was a huge factor in buying Olympus and I want it to work well and often. The idea that some reviewers propose of having it user selected or at shutdown is bad design. I switch the camera off to change lenses and want it to use the sswf when it goes back on for obvious reasons.

I would suggest that moving to digital has brought about a dumbing down of the art of composition and taking time on the shot (which the cost of film put in your head) with the advent of 'free' pictures and huge memory cards people shoot huge numbers and then see if they have any keepers. I can see in sport action that this is a good thing but in my work I am trying to slow myself down and think much harder.

Any thoughts.

peter
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Old 9th March 2008
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Re: Thoughts on SSWF (formerly: Thoughts on SWD.)

Well said Peter, well said.

I think judging a camera on a "difference in startup time of 0.2" seconds is rather sad and is perhaps indicative of how out of focus some people are from what really matters.

If a camera takes 1.6 seconds to fire up, and another takes 1.0 seconds to do the same thing, does this really make camera #1 a better camera...? of course not.

Don't get me wrong here, I am not saying anyone here has suggested this, not at all... I am merely being facetious to illustrate a point. Of course, it's all relative, each to their own, and I am sure that for a small minority of photographers, a faster startup time is going to be beneficial for them, but we are really only talking a small % of photographers where this functionality would benefit, and would need to be be an imperative feature. Most of us are happy that we can fire off our shutters within a 'few seconds' - that's the granularity we measure in... not milliseconds. If my income and livelihood absolutely depended on my camera being able to fire in under a second, then I'd ensure this was a feature, but I'm not in that category and I'd suggest most people aren't.

It's the more important features I believe, as Peter alludes to above, such as composition etc that some have lost sight of.
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Old 10th March 2008
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Re: Thoughts on SSWF (formerly: Thoughts on SWD.)

If 1.6 sec is an issue, and I think there are times when it is, then one should use the same method I use, which is very simple. Keep the camera switched on and don't let it go to sleep. That way only the first time switch on is critical, which I think is just a non-issue. If somebody is so unprepared and the camera is still in the bag than 1.6 sec hardly makes any difference.

As for cleaning before or after, IMO, neither. The SSWF membrane is placed AFTER the shutter curtain, so in my opinion there is no real point in shaking the membrane at switch on, because it will only shake off debris after the last image, which entered through the shutter when you took the last image. After that image, you switched off the camera and maybe placed the camera in your bag, went home and the next day when you switch on the camera the membrane gets shaken and it shakes off whatever is still possible to shake off.

In my opinion, the SSWF should be activated at switch off, and after the first time the shutter got activated after switch on, i.e. after the first image is taken. I occasionally switch on, shoot and off/on just clean after a lens change. Also if I am walking around, I some times play with the power switch.

Am I hysterical? Maybe, but I actually had some serious dust problems before, so I'll be even more hysterical with my E-3. I actually think LV bodies should be more often cleaned because when you activate LV you open the shutter curtain and constantly sucking in dust, especially if you use zoom lenses or macro bellows.
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Old 10th March 2008
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Re: Thoughts on SSWF (formerly: Thoughts on SWD.)

If the camera isn't switched on or needs to wake up the photographer is unprepared, so any startup lag is self inflicted whichever way you look at it.

I think the logic of having the SSWF operate at startup is sound enough. I'd rather it get rid of the dust before I take a photograph rather than after. You have to keep in mind the SSWF only works when the camera is horizontal, so stuffing the camera into camera a bag could cause lose dust to float around and land on the sensor, not much good if SSWF only works on switch off. Also when changing lenses most people would switch the camera off to avoid atmospheric static attracting dust to the sensor, but if some dust does shift around the SSWF will always work to help get rid of it when switched on again.
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Old 10th March 2008
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Re: Thoughts on SSWF (formerly: Thoughts on SWD.)

1.6sec start up time? Oh please get a life why people get so hung up on it is beyond me. For the last 4 years I have using an Olympus E20 which has a really long start up time like 4-5 secs or more. Neather bothered me, I knew it was like that so changed my style to accomadate for it.

As for SSWF, if you put the lens on then start the camera up, and it cleans the sensor, where does all the dust go?
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Old 10th March 2008
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Re: Thoughts on SSWF (formerly: Thoughts on SWD.)

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Originally Posted by knikki View Post
As for SSWF, if you put the lens on then start the camera up, and it cleans the sensor, where does all the dust go?
Excuse my very crude explanation but its my understanding there is like a sticky membrane similair to sticky tape that the dust gets stuck to.
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