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Software Discuss Olympus Master, Studio and Viewer software applications as well as third party programs like Adobe Photoshop, Lightroom, Apple Aperture, and others.

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  #31  
Old 2nd July 2011
jamie allan jamie allan is offline
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Re: Mac or PC?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DerekW View Post
However people choose a Mac - it is a positive statement of intent often after investigation of the options and making a decision about buying into the technology, rather like choosing to use a 4/3rds or m4/3rds camera rather than a Canikon Vista or whatever.
Derek,
I don't really know what a Canikon Vista is. I have friends who use both Canon and Nikon - I don't have a problem with that or their determination of how they came to purchase their cameras - as far as I'm concerned we are all here to take and record photographs. Similarly I don't have a problem with Mac or PC users - it's each to their own. All I'm saying is that there are pros and cons on either side of the PC debate and in this case it's down to Stephen's preference. I can see the benefits of both - particularly if cost is not an option. All I'm saying is that the Mac is at a true cost disadvantage as far as I can see. As an IT manager in a company employing 40,000 staff and using 25,000 PCs, Macs don't come into the equation - there is a reason for that and I don't believe it's simply the Microsoft ad machine. Total Cost of Ownership is a big player in my business and yet it is all PCs.
I really don't think the Mac Vs PC debate has any true relevance to the Olympus Vs the rest of the world in a photography debate. Many of us got here from the days of using OM technology - I know I did - not from railing against the machine.
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  #32  
Old 2nd July 2011
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Re: Mac or PC?

Many schools have moved over to using Macs because the need for technical support is much reduced compared with Windows machines.

Windows techs will promote the use of Windows machines as a form of job security.

Windows is dominant in industry because key business applications have been developed and so they have locked them into the business.
The home user is unlikely to have a need for applications that are Windows specific and so is better able to make a choice.

As for TCO Macs do hold their prices significantly better than PCs - just look at the prices 3 to 6 year old Macs get on eBay.
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  #33  
Old 2nd July 2011
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Re: Mac or PC?

Can someone explain to me why they think the TCO is lower? The Macs cost much more initially, and software prices are roughly comparable. Even allowing that you can sell your old Mac for a few quid more than your old PC, you're never going to get the huge price difference in initial outlay back.....
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  #34  
Old 2nd July 2011
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Re: Mac or PC?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DerekW View Post
Many schools have moved over to using Macs because the need for technical support is much reduced compared with Windows machines.

Windows techs will promote the use of Windows machines as a form of job security.

Windows is dominant in industry because key business applications have been developed and so they have locked them into the business.
The home user is unlikely to have a need for applications that are Windows specific and so is better able to make a choice.

As for TCO Macs do hold their prices significantly better than PCs - just look at the prices 3 to 6 year old Macs get on eBay.
Derek,
Point 1
I've got to say that from where I sit point 1 doesn't hold up. My local authority education department which is the biggest in Scotland use HP PCs.
Point 2
Is a bit of a low blow for which I'd be interested to see statistics for. My own department statistics show that the biggest single point of failure is the person on the other end of the keyboard. So hardware platform/OS is to some degree irrelevant.
Point 3
Is to an extent correct and so we are where we are at this point in time - but is there a groundswell to change it - I think not. I agree that the home user does not have the same needs as a business user - or the need to conform to ensure transferred data files are readable/interpretable.
Point 4
Is all a question of initial finances. If you have more money to spend initially you can buy a Mac and at the end of it's useful life to you get more back for it second hand than the you would for a PC. However that PC in the first instance is more than likely to have cost you significantly less to purchase. So you have to weigh up the costs of your initial outlay.
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  #35  
Old 3rd July 2011
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Re: Mac or PC?

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Originally Posted by jamie allan View Post
John,
According to the statistics I have garnered from Gartner and others the Mac has approx 10% of the US PC/laptop market and 5-6% of the worldwide market. Those figures may be down to
1) going with the flow
2) initial cost
3) on going costs
4) other issues
but the figures are real and need to be acknowledged. There are reasons that the majority of PC/laptop buyers buy regular Windows PCs/laptops.
Fair point Jamie I have seen similar stats. What I will say is that Mac market share is growing, particularly in the USA. Anecdotally I've been to California skiing for the last 3 years and I can tell you that the ratio of Mac to PC laptops in the coffee shops and cafes in Tahoe (and San Francisco) was more like 1 in 4, 1 in 2 in some, and 1 to 1 or better in one case ! (From Memory of users seen in March 2010 and March 2011)

Yes Microsoft have had a huge share of the PC OS market and I can understand why people go with the popular option as more friends have it, more software is available etc. But despite this and Microsoft's attempts to make life very difficult for Apple (for example Office for Mac used to be much more expensive than the PC version, Messenger for Mac has restricted features (no video) compared to the PC version - it can be done as Skype works really well across both platforms) and despite the fact that Macs can't compete on price in the cheaper sections of the PC market, Mac market share is growing and that must say something too.

Ultimately as you and I have said budget is important. Macs can't compete on price with a cheap or cheapish PC (or cheap to Medium price build your own PC). For a medium budget they can be an option if you buy cannily and with a larger budget definitely an option for a home user like Stephen in my opinion. (I'm assuming he isn't heavily into gaming for example)

With a medium to larger budget if you benchmark a Mac against a PC with similar spec and quality of components then the difference is often smaller than people usually think - I've seen some comparisons with Dell and Sony Vaio's for example. Last time I looked at the all-in-one computers from HP and Sony in Comet they were not that much cheaper than an iMac either. Some of the design features and free software that comes with Macs may be worth something to you too. (For example, I find the magnetic power lead connection very useful on my MacBook)

Regarding the cost of ownership then the higher resale value and longer useful working lives of Macs can narrow the gap with PCs or eliminate it, depending upon how you benchmarked the specs/quality in the first place.

I've tried to present some facts about Macs here in my postings as I believe Stephen wanted information on them. Tried to avoid bias too but I am a Mac user !

Ultimately if a Mac is within your budget and you are a home user like Stephen then a Mac could be for you - so for anyone interested have a good demo with one and see if it suits you. If it doesn't - buy a PC, simple really



Mark

Last edited by Mark; 3rd July 2011 at 10:47 PM. Reason: tidying up
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  #36  
Old 3rd July 2011
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Re: Mac or PC?

One of the reasons Macs are out of the question for many people is price. How much does the cheapest Mac cost? A Mac Mini, without a screen, is over £600. The cheapest MacBook is nearly £900.

The last PC we bought was Julia's 17 inch HP laptop about 18 months ago; with an i4 Intel dual core processor, 3GB RAM, 320GB hard drive, Windows 7 Home Premium 64-bit - £450.

You can buy Netbooks for well under £300 with Windows 7 installed.

No wonder all the ski cafés have higher than average numbers of Mac products on display - if you can afford to ski you can afford a Mac...

Ian
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  #37  
Old 3rd July 2011
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Re: Mac or PC?

In the end, if you like the style of a Mac, are happy not to have the range of software available that Windows users enjoy, and don't mind the restrictions that Apple impose on you (no Adobe Flash support, for example) and you can afford a Mac, then by all means buy a Mac.

What I hope nobody does is buy a Mac because they have been persuaded to for no good reason when a cheaper PC would have been just as good if not better. Few people stick up for PCs and naturally the Mac community shouts very hard for what they have invested in. That's why I feel I have to provide a point of view that I hope is balanced concerning the Mac versus Windows debate.

In terms of usability and security, there is hardly any difference between the two. They are different but if you are used to the way each works, the usability is pretty much the same. Stability is very good for both, and so is security. People say Windows is vulnerable to viruses, etc. Only if you don't install a reputable security suite (and you don't even need to pay for this as there are several sources of free security software, including Microsoft).

And there is no denying that the choice of Windows hardware and features in PC designs is much wider and cheaper to buy. It has already been pointed out that while Macs may have more resale value, they cost a lot more in the first place. If you have problems with your Mac, there are a lot more Windows savvy people around to help, in my view, too.

I will admit that I don't like the way Apple tries to control its users. But if you don't mind that and have considered the pros and cons sensibly, then I will only be too delighted that you have found your ideal computer in the form of a Mac. Me, personally, even though I cannot juistify the cost of a Mac anyway, I see many more PCs that I prefer the design of and feel more secure in the Windows camp. That's me.

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  #38  
Old 3rd July 2011
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Re: Mac or PC?

Hi Ian,

I'm not wanting to have an argument with the forum owner, but I hope you won't mind if I respond to some of your comments.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian View Post
One of the reasons Macs are out of the question for many people is price. How much does the cheapest Mac cost? A Mac Mini, without a screen, is over £600. The cheapest MacBook is nearly £900.

Ian
There are cheaper ways to do this. But yes as I have said budget is an important issue - see my earlier posts. I'm not saying Macs are for everyone but for someone like Stephen they might be an option.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian View Post

You can buy Netbooks for well under £300 with Windows 7 installed.
Ian
Absolutely and if they meet your needs great. They are not that powerful though and a friend of mine regrets buying one now for that reason. Surely this is not a fair comparison with a Mac ? With an iPad possibly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian View Post
No wonder all the ski cafés have higher than average numbers of Mac products on display - if you can afford to ski you can afford a Mac...
Ian
Sorry but that assumption is wrong. The ski set-up is different in the USA. They were not ski cafes but coffee shops, cafes etc. in South Lake Tahoe (the town where I stayed), and San Francisco, used by locals in most cases. I was really surprised by how many Mac laptops I saw in use in California,
compared to the UK.


Responding to your next post -

1) Intel chipped Macs can run windows so have no real software restriction (at some extra cost granted)

2) Mac OSX can run flash player and flash player in a browser for video clips. Think it is the iPhone that has flash restrictions.

3) Plenty of people stick up for PCs and bash Macs on the internet in forums and product reviews. And vice-versa and I'm tired of it personally. Thankfully this forum seems a friendly place - long may it continue.

4) For usability personal taste I guess. I wasn't too impressed with XP or Vista ( I do run XP sometimes on my iMac) compared with Mac OSX. I hear Win7 is better though.

5) For security there is a clear difference. I don't have to run anti-virus software. If I did run it I'm sure the updates would be quicker than I get running XP ! There are one or two bits of Malware out there but are easily avoided (see Paris Hilton video comment in the Aperture thread). This may of course change if Mac market share continues to grow.

6) Fair enough if you have a PC problem there will probably be someone you know who can help. With a Mac there may not be someone you know but on the flipside the Apple warranty is good and there are some very helpful online forums and of course Apple stores/resellers that can help too. Personally I got fed up with my PC (not a cheap one) crashing and hard disks failing twice after less than 18 months use each. I've used Macs now for about 10 years and they've all been reliable. I use PCs at work and they are not so reliable. Just my experience of course.


Ultimately each to their own taste. For a user like Stephen if a Mac is within budget then I only suggested he should have a thorough demo to see if it suits him. If it doesn't suit no problem for me - I'd much rather people on this forum made the right choice for them and were happy with it

Hopefully the balance of points of view here now will be helpful to any members looking at both systems. Particularly as I've just looked at the clock and should be in bed !!


Regards,
Mark


P.S. Thanks Ian for your tips on shooting fireworks last November. I used them to get a few good shots at a local display.

Last edited by Mark; 3rd July 2011 at 10:41 PM. Reason: tidying up
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  #39  
Old 3rd July 2011
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Re: Mac or PC?

About the TCO: I did not made it up. It is the result of a survey among IT enterprise managers.

Besides the TCO point: why don't we all drive a Hyundai i10 and not a BMW? I have much more fun in using my (hassle free) OS X MacBook Pro than a corporate Windows laptop.
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  #40  
Old 3rd July 2011
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Re: Mac or PC?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dogcow View Post
About the TCO: I did not made it up. It is the result of a survey among IT enterprise managers.
Dogcow,
I wasn't suggesting you made up the statement/statistic however I do think that taking pro Mac statements/statistics from a blog called The Apple Core might require a bit more scrutiny and in-depth analysis. As I said at the start of all this it's Stephen's decision how he spends his money and impartial advice is what he asked for. I'd suggest that is what needs be provided.
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  #41  
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Re: Mac or PC?

Hi Mark, I think in the end we are agreeing on the most important points, that any decision should be carefully weighed up and not be an impulse. I know people who have regretted buying Macs. Mac fans might find that incredulous, but it's true. And of course Mac fans generally don't like using Windows, of course I understand that. I don't wish to bash Macs, I just want the debate to be balanced. I think one of the reasons why some Mac fans get some stick in other forums is because they (not you! ) come across as being rather bossy about the pros of the Mac world. But in general I find that Windows users in general are rather ambivolent and tend not tio get involved in these debates (certainly not in the numbers that represent the Windows shareof the market) as they don't really have much to gain. Mac fans can, on the other hand, have the urge to evangelise their preference.

One thing that did disappoint me was Apple's decision not to allow third party hardware manufacturers to build Mac-compatible computers. I may well have come to like Macs with a wider and more independent chocie of hardware.

As I said in an earlier post, Apple is a control freak company, something which was not in their DNA when the Mac was born back in 1984, or the original Apple II in the late 70s. I want choice and value for money, as well as great functionality and security and that's why I use Windows and my phone is an Android.

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  #42  
Old 3rd July 2011
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Re: Mac or PC?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dogcow View Post
About the TCO: I did not made it up. It is the result of a survey among IT enterprise managers.

Besides the TCO point: why don't we all drive a Hyundai i10 and not a BMW? I have much more fun in using my (hassle free) OS X MacBook Pro than a corporate Windows laptop.
I would quite like to drive a BMW but I can't afford one! But there are many better and affordable cars than a Hyundai. I dare say some are better than teh equivalent BMW model too. At least I have a choice!

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  #43  
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Re: Mac or PC?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dogcow View Post
why don't we all drive a Hyundai i10 and not a BMW? I have much more fun in using my (hassle free) OS X MacBook Pro than a corporate Windows laptop.
My Win 7 is totally hassle free, and always has been, just like most other people who use it. As for the car comparison, it just makes you sound like a fanboy....

The abomination that is iTunes managed to get me to eventually sell my iPhone and vow never to buy anything starting with 'i' again....
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  #44  
Old 3rd July 2011
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Re: Mac or PC?

Write down a list of what you want to do with your computer and the software that you must be able to run. Match those requirements against PC and Mac offerings. Which offers the best fit at best value?

For me it is a no-brainer. I want to be able to build my own machine to my own spec. Mac - I think not. Even though I am of advanced years I still want to learn and experiment. Look what Microsoft will give you here - free! for nothing! Will Apple do the same? I can't find it on their web site if they do.
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Re: Mac or PC?

The Apple Developer Tools are also free and Automator and AppleScript are inside the OS X package as well as all the Unix tools you'll ever need.
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