Olympus UK E-System User Group
Olympus UK E-System User Group

Join our unique resource for Olympus Four Thirds E-System DSLR and Pen and OM-D Micro Four Thirds photographers. Show your images via our free e-group photo gallery. Please read the e-group.uk.net forum terms and conditions before posting for the first time. Above all, welcome!


Go Back   Olympus UK E-System User Group > Cameras, lenses and system accessories > Camera conference

Camera conference General and model-specific E-System camera chat.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 4th July 2009
Zuiko's Avatar
Zuiko Zuiko is online now
Administrator
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Dunmow, Essex
Posts: 22,345
Thanks: 2,003
Thanked 3,196 Times in 2,500 Posts
Likes: 3,511
Liked 4,585 Times in 2,184 Posts
Enough is enough!

Back in good old film days if you bought a quality camera it would probably last you for life, with no real need to upgrade unless you fancied a change. Sure, new features were evolving all the time, like autofocus or more sophisticated metering systems, but the image quality was ultimately decided by the film used and if a better type of film was introduced you just bought that instead of your existing brand without any need to upgrade the camera.

In digital land things are fundamentally different. The sensor plays a huge part in image quality and if a better sensor becomes available the only way to take advantage of it is to buy a new camera. I'm sure most of us have played the multiple upgrade game. My version of this game was to buy an E500, use it for about a year, upgrade to an E510, use that for about a year, the upgrade to an E3. Each of these steps has been worthwhile in terms of improved image quality and, if the new sensor in the E-P1 is anything to go by, the eventual E3 replacement will be another significant step forward.

Of course, it's not just a matter of upgrading the E3, in the meantime there's the issue of buying an E-P1. Ever since my daughter purloined my ageing Canon compact I've missed having a small camera I could just slip in my pocket without the need to carry a cumbersome DSLR everywhere. Surely the E-P1 is the answer. Manna from Heaven! A compact sized camera offering DSLR quality!

Then there is the small matter of lenses, we are never satisfied, are we? O.K., I am satisfied with my 14-54mm, it's a cracking lens. I'm also not unhappy with my 40-150mm and 70-300mm lenses, but once you've borrowed a 50-200mm these never quite seem the same again. And it would be nice to go a bit wider than 14mm so really a 9-18mm needs serious consideration. Then there's the question of a macro lens. True, the 70-300mm does a pretty good job, particularly when fitted with a high quality Nikon close-up lens and I do have a capable manual focus 90mm Elicar 1:1 macro but none of these quite compare to the 50mm f2 so I'd better put one of those on my list.

Hang on, how much is all of this going to cost? The bank manager says “No chance!” (mean b@$#@d) Better get my priorities right and just wait for the E3 upgrade then.

WHY?

Am I happy with the features on the E3? …. YES!

Am I happy with how it handles? ….. YES!

Am I happy with the image quality? ….. YES!

Would an extra (probable) 2mp make much real difference? ….. NO!

Is it worth an upgrade just on the basis of better high ISO performance alone? …... GUESS THAT'S THE REAL QUESTION!

Let's think about that for a few moments....

Do I need high ISO for much of my work? ….. NO! On the contrary, I use it for very little.

When I do need it, does the E3 disappoint? …. NO! Not really. True, it's not quite as capable in this department as some other cameras but the gap is not nearly so wide as urban myths would have you believe. In fact, compared to film at ISO 1600 or 3200 it's astonishingly good. And the noise does clean up quite nicely in specialist software, it just requires a little more effort.

VERDICT? No need to upgrade, the E3 is a better camera than I am a photographer and it's potential is greater than mine. In fact, maybe the camera should be considering upgrading its user! There must come a point when every photographer has better kit than they really need and the trick is to recognise when you've achieved that position. I'm there right now!

So, thinking about the money I'll save by keeping the E3, how about a nice new lens or three? There's no denying it would be nice to trade my two tele-zooms for a 50-200mm. But that's the best part of a thousand quid! Is the cost in proportion to the likely improvement in my photographs? Er, no!

Better think about a wide angle zoom then. That's sure to improve my photography, or is it? I recently commented in a thread about the E-P1 that I used to find the discipline imposed by using a single prime lens actually improved my photography by forcing me to think about the composition and how I could best use that lens. So adding more focal lengths to my arsenal of optics won't by itself make me a more creative photographer, just a poorer and more heavily laden one! It would do me more good, I'm sure, to concentrate on making the most of what I already have.

That leaves the macro lens, or does it? Is the lack of this lens preventing me from taking more macro shots? …. NO!

Is a lack of motivation preventing me from taking more macro shots with the kit I already have? ….. YES!

The answer to that seems pretty straightforward, doesn't it?

AH HA! Having “saved” all that money maybe I can now justify an E-P1? After all, I do need a new compact. No, I don't need a compact (I don't need anything) but by virtue of having a camera with me more often this is the purchase most likely to get me more pictures. There's just one little problem, the price! O.K, this will probably fall quite sharply once the product has been available for a few months but it's still going to be a lot of money that my bank manager (remember him?) says I can't afford. Particularly since I earlier called him a b@**@*d!

Is there a cheaper alternative? ….. MAYBE.

I'm currently considering a Panasonic LX3 which may be an acceptable compromise. It won't have the image quality of the E-P1 but it is even smaller and lighter and therefore even more likely to be with me when that unexpected great picture presents itself. AND CHEAPER! Particularly second hand on ebay.

There's no denying that spending lots of money on new cameras or lenses is very satisfying and enjoyable, providing you have that money to spend. Eventually though, unless your name is Abramovich, you have to concede that ENOUGH IS ENOUGH.
__________________
John

"A hundredth of a second here, a hundredth of a second there even if you put them end to end, they still only add up to one, two, perhaps three seconds, snatched from eternity." ~ Robert Doisneau
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 4th July 2009
dabchick
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Enough is enough!

I think at some stage you have to come to the point where you recognise you have enough and concentrate on the picture taking process and not the gear. I've just been through a bit of an upgrade cycle and apart from not being able to afford or justify any more expense, I've decided to try and make the most of what I have for the foreseeable future. There are plenty of E-500 etc owners out there still taking great pictures and I take my inspiration from seeing what people can produce from the most "antiquated" gear you can imagine. Despite just purchasing an E-30 I still feel more inclined to use my E-1 at times. Newer gear is nice to read about and drool over at times but ultimately its not going to make me a better photographer and quite often distracts me from actually taking pictures. Doesn't stop me lusting after an UWA lens though .

Last edited by dabchick; 4th July 2009 at 10:32 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 4th July 2009
dbutch's Avatar
dbutch dbutch is offline
Full member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Yateley, Hampshire
Posts: 652
Thanks: 46
Thanked 29 Times in 19 Posts
Likes: 21
Liked 13 Times in 9 Posts
Re: Enough is enough!

Pretty fair sum up

One thing to note though! in film days I thought I'd done well to shoot a 1000pics in a year, my 4 week old E-30 has already done 3500 'eek'
So maybe it is just as well you replace to improve as they are more likely to wear out

By the way I'm loving the E-30

Dave
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 4th July 2009
snaarman's Avatar
snaarman snaarman is offline
Full member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Baaarkshire UK
Posts: 6,873
Thanks: 504
Thanked 417 Times in 325 Posts
Likes: 492
Liked 1,346 Times in 508 Posts
Re: Enough is enough!

Oh yes. I recognise this. That new lens, that new body - I wonder if it will let me get that extra picture, will it make me a Better Photographer???

I have heard this before :-) That new Ibanez guitar, if I buy that - will I be able to play like Joe Satriani? Oooh, look at those new paint brushes - if I buy them will I paint like Van Goch?

We are all guilty too. I have usually successfully talked myself out of most of my expensive plans, but then suddenly I bought a second hand 11-22, a 50mm macro and an E510 off this forum almost on a whim (and have not regretted it at all).

As to the EP-1. For a moment I thought it would be the silent Leica style digital camera I was seeking for those indoor event pictures, but: 1 - I really can't live without the viewfinder*. Sorry Olympus. 2 - How many pictures do I actually take each year in circumstances where quieter would be better? Surely not enough to justify a whole new camera..

No. Just say no, Pete

*EP-1 viewfinder. Doesn't it have a HDMI video output? Could they not make a mini EVF for the hot shoe with a litte cable that plugs in the side of the camera??
__________________
Look, I'm an old man. I shouldn't be expected to put up with this.


Pete's photoblog Misleading the public since 2010.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 4th July 2009
theMusicMan's Avatar
theMusicMan theMusicMan is offline
E-3 Enthusiast....:)
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: South Wales
Posts: 5,878
Thanks: 143
Thanked 267 Times in 178 Posts
Likes: 8
Liked 30 Times in 19 Posts
Re: Enough is enough!

Superb, thought provoking post there John.

I have managed quite a spell without having a new lens purchased, but I have to admit... the 9-18mm and the awesome 7-14mm would fit beautifully in my camera bag. I have tried both, and it's not that they would make me a better photographer per s as I have a long way to go yet, but it's that I am often able to recognise that I really could get better shots with these lenses.

For example; I love the 11-22mm, and at the moment it's the lens that is almost glued to my E-3 (barring Skomer trips of course ), but when I am out and about looking for shots, and as I continue learn about how to shoot landscapes and tone mapping, I often find myself wishing I had the 9-18mm or 7-14mm - for what they could give me over the 11-22mm. The 11-22mm has yielded some ok shots for me, but having had the pleasure of using both the 9-18mm and 7-14mm recently - I do yearn for one of them.

Having said that... finances dictate my present position and I don't think I shall be purchasing anything new soon - and... I still have so much to learn about landscapes such that I haven't exceeded anywhere near what the 11-22mm will provide.
__________________
John

Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 4th July 2009
Zuiko's Avatar
Zuiko Zuiko is online now
Administrator
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Dunmow, Essex
Posts: 22,345
Thanks: 2,003
Thanked 3,196 Times in 2,500 Posts
Likes: 3,511
Liked 4,585 Times in 2,184 Posts
Re: Enough is enough!

Quote:
Originally Posted by theMusicMan View Post
Superb, thought provoking post there John.

I have managed quite a spell without having a new lens purchased, but I have to admit... the 9-18mm and the awesome 7-14mm would fit beautifully in my camera bag. I have tried both, and it's not that they would make me a better photographer per s as I have a long way to go yet, but it's that I am often able to recognise that I really could get better shots with these lenses.

For example; I love the 11-22mm, and at the moment it's the lens that is almost glued to my E-3 (barring Skomer trips of course ), but when I am out and about looking for shots, and as I continue learn about how to shoot landscapes and tone mapping, I often find myself wishing I had the 9-18mm or 7-14mm - for what they could give me over the 11-22mm. The 11-22mm has yielded some ok shots for me, but having had the pleasure of using both the 9-18mm and 7-14mm recently - I do yearn for one of them.

Having said that... finances dictate my present position and I don't think I shall be purchasing anything new soon - and... I still have so much to learn about landscapes such that I haven't exceeded anywhere near what the 11-22mm will provide.
I recognise exactly where you're comming from, John. It's not that we need more lenses to become more creative but often a new addition to the kit bag will motivate and inspire us to take more photographs. At least for a while, until the novelty wears off. Then we start drooling over "the next big purchase," convinced that this time it really will raise our photography onto a new plateaux.

It seldom does, of course, at least in my case. The only time it has really worked for me was when I traded in my complete and extensive Olympus OM kit for a Bronica medium format system. It wasn't so much the new camera that improved my results, but rather the new discipline and slower, more methodical way of working that the larger format imposed, forcing me to think more about my compositions and lighting.

Back to the present, our yearnings for more glass is all relative. You have an 11-22 but yearn for a 7-14mm or 9-18mm; I have a 14-54mm as my widest lens and to me the 11-22mm is an object of desire! After all, if I had one of those I'd take pictures like Steve Roughly, wouldn't I? Dream on!

There's nothing wrong with constantly buying new equipment, if it gives us pleasure and we can afford it. The problems come if we convince ourselves we are unable to grow any further as a photographer because we can't afford that "essential" piece of new kit - or we overspend to the point where we cannot afford to go anywhere to take photographs!
__________________
John

"A hundredth of a second here, a hundredth of a second there even if you put them end to end, they still only add up to one, two, perhaps three seconds, snatched from eternity." ~ Robert Doisneau
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 4th July 2009
crimbo crimbo is offline
Full member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Shetland
Posts: 1,736
Thanks: 100
Thanked 149 Times in 130 Posts
Likes: 22
Liked 122 Times in 62 Posts
Re: Enough is enough!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zuiko View Post
...if it gives us pleasure and we can afford it. The problems come if we convince ourselves we are unable to grow any further as a photographer because we can't afford that "essential" piece of new kit -
whole heartedly agree with all you have said...my pleasure is in playing with legacy lenses - it ups the fun but my piccies will not improve...
But I am running an E400 with insulation tape holding the card door on so would I get 'better' piccies with an E620...would that IS really help...or have I been bitten by the consumer 'must have the latest' bug?
__________________
chris
shetland
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 4th July 2009
Zuiko's Avatar
Zuiko Zuiko is online now
Administrator
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Dunmow, Essex
Posts: 22,345
Thanks: 2,003
Thanked 3,196 Times in 2,500 Posts
Likes: 3,511
Liked 4,585 Times in 2,184 Posts
Re: Enough is enough!

Quote:
Originally Posted by crimbo View Post
whole heartedly agree with all you have said...my pleasure is in playing with legacy lenses - it ups the fun but my piccies will not improve...
But I am running an E400 with insulation tape holding the card door on so would I get 'better' piccies with an E620...would that IS really help...or have I been bitten by the consumer 'must have the latest' bug?
Ah! That's something that only you can decide. My message is simply that whitst it is nice to have the latest gear it's not essential, and not being able to afford it in these financially difficult times shouldn't be a barrier to good and enjoyable photography.
__________________
John

"A hundredth of a second here, a hundredth of a second there even if you put them end to end, they still only add up to one, two, perhaps three seconds, snatched from eternity." ~ Robert Doisneau
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 4th July 2009
crimbo crimbo is offline
Full member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Shetland
Posts: 1,736
Thanks: 100
Thanked 149 Times in 130 Posts
Likes: 22
Liked 122 Times in 62 Posts
Re: Enough is enough!

I know...decisions decisions... but like many I will probably be more frivolous as I have more 'free' money -whenever that happens next

but you are right most of us to not have a real need to upgrade but for some post the consumer I can have it when I want it society, they may feel emotionally challenged that they cannot get the 'latest'
Those of us who have been through this before will make do and mend..and we will enjoy what we have rather than aspiring to something else to make our happiness

so do I need an EP-1? No!. Do I lust after having an EP-1? Yes!
Will I get an EP-1? Not unless I get several hundred quid without trying... I can use it to video the flying pigs...
__________________
chris
shetland
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 4th July 2009
Zuiko's Avatar
Zuiko Zuiko is online now
Administrator
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Dunmow, Essex
Posts: 22,345
Thanks: 2,003
Thanked 3,196 Times in 2,500 Posts
Likes: 3,511
Liked 4,585 Times in 2,184 Posts
Re: Enough is enough!

Quote:
Originally Posted by crimbo View Post

so do I need an EP-1? No!. Do I lust after having an EP-1? Yes!
Will I get an EP-1? Not unless I get several hundred quid without trying... I can use it to video the flying pigs...
My position exactly!
__________________
John

"A hundredth of a second here, a hundredth of a second there even if you put them end to end, they still only add up to one, two, perhaps three seconds, snatched from eternity." ~ Robert Doisneau
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 4th July 2009
DTD DTD is offline
Full member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Manchester
Posts: 279
Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Likes: 1
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Re: Enough is enough!

Generally I prefer shoes to cameras. I have more shoes than I need.
I still have some film cameras that don't earn their keep.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 4th July 2009
dabchick
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Enough is enough!

Quote:
Originally Posted by DTD View Post
Generally I prefer shoes to cameras. I have more shoes than I need.
I still have some film cameras that don't earn their keep.
I find the dynamic range and high ISO performance of shoes sadly lacking for my needs.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 4th July 2009
rich s
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Diminutive LX3 or D-Lux 4

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zuiko View Post

I'm currently considering a Panasonic LX3 which may be an acceptable compromise. It won't have the image quality of the E-P1 but it is even smaller and lighter and therefore even more likely to be with me when that unexpected great picture presents itself. AND CHEAPER! Particularly second hand on ebay.
I took my Leica D-Lux 4 to a small local concert in Brittany the other evening - venue was an old Chapel, with a highly talented Classical guitarist doing his stuff on various instruments - including harp, timpany, and 12 string guitar. I first thought of taking the E30 with 50-200, but soon abandoned that (I was with friends) and took just the Leica.

The right decision, as any shutter going off would have been so wrong in that atmosphere ..... So I turned off the Leica shutter sound, used ISO 400 with f2, and managed around 1/60th, which was fine. No need for a longer zoom either, as I steadily moved round the rear of the chapel before moving forward to a position no more than 15ft from the musician.

So small, pocketable, discreet and totally silent won the day. The little Leica is with me whenever I want it, and I have some nice pics to show for it. I have a G1 as well, and even that is too noisy ... nor does it have that super fast f2 Leica lens. And IQ is really excellent!

For discreet event shoots, that it one reason I am still very cautious about the usefulness of the EP-1 ... slow lenses, & not pocketable. At a bigger concert where shutter sound is immaterial, I take the E30 and blast away with a fast lens ...
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 5th July 2009
Zuiko's Avatar
Zuiko Zuiko is online now
Administrator
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Dunmow, Essex
Posts: 22,345
Thanks: 2,003
Thanked 3,196 Times in 2,500 Posts
Likes: 3,511
Liked 4,585 Times in 2,184 Posts
Re: Diminutive LX3 or D-Lux 4

Quote:
Originally Posted by rich s View Post
I took my Leica D-Lux 4 to a small local concert in Brittany the other evening - venue was an old Chapel, with a highly talented Classical guitarist doing his stuff on various instruments - including harp, timpany, and 12 string guitar. I first thought of taking the E30 with 50-200, but soon abandoned that (I was with friends) and took just the Leica.

The right decision, as any shutter going off would have been so wrong in that atmosphere ..... So I turned off the Leica shutter sound, used ISO 400 with f2, and managed around 1/60th, which was fine. No need for a longer zoom either, as I steadily moved round the rear of the chapel before moving forward to a position no more than 15ft from the musician.

So small, pocketable, discreet and totally silent won the day. The little Leica is with me whenever I want it, and I have some nice pics to show for it. I have a G1 as well, and even that is too noisy ... nor does it have that super fast f2 Leica lens. And IQ is really excellent!

For discreet event shoots, that it one reason I am still very cautious about the usefulness of the EP-1 ... slow lenses, & not pocketable. At a bigger concert where shutter sound is immaterial, I take the E30 and blast away with a fast lens ...
Thanks for this, Rich, it's edged me closer to the LX3. Anyone else have experience of this or the Leica version?
__________________
John

"A hundredth of a second here, a hundredth of a second there even if you put them end to end, they still only add up to one, two, perhaps three seconds, snatched from eternity." ~ Robert Doisneau
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 5th July 2009
rich s
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Diminutive LX3 or D-Lux 4

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zuiko View Post
Thanks for this, Rich, it's edged me closer to the LX3. Anyone else have experience of this or the Leica version?
By the way, a number of factors moved me to the Leica rather than the LX3.
One was the 3 yr warranty by Leica Another was the undoubted higher resale value if & when I might want to sell, and third was support in Capture One 4.

I already use CO4 with RAWs from my Oly bodies, so to have the Leica operating within the same processor was a real bonus.

Finally, I liked the idea of a detachable grip - OK its extra, but beautifully made, and gives the camera that little bit of extra bulk and mass .... I found a s/h wrist strap, and generally support the camera with a couple of fingers when in use.

Its sometimes said that the Leica has different in camera processing software to the LX3. Never proven, but the colour OOC is very natural. There have been a few colour issues with the LX3 I understand, but I'm sure with PP those are solveable.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 11:16 AM.


The Write Technology Ltd, 2007-2019, All rights reservedAd Management plugin by RedTyger