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-   -   Electric Vehicles Emit more CO2 than Diesel (https://e-group.uk.net/forum/showthread.php?t=50406)

wornish 22nd April 2019 09:30 AM

Electric Vehicles Emit more CO2 than Diesel
 
A recent study in Germany shows that electric vehicles actually pollute more than Diesel ones. Who would have believed it?


http://brusselstimes.com/business/te...an-study-shows

shenstone 22nd April 2019 09:56 AM

Re: Electric Vehicles Emit more CO2 than Diesel
 
Indeed. I believe this is reasonably accurate and when you consider the heavy metals and rare earth elements needed for modern electronics there are a number of other actors as well which need to be considered in terms of total environmental impact

IMO electric vehicles are useful for improving air quality in critical areas and that is the main reason to consider them but the hype that goes with them (which I have researched a lot recently leading up to an electric motorcycle purchase for my wife) omits so many facts that the manufacturers miss out that it is east to draw the wrong conclusions

The main thing we need to consider is thinking more long term. Many of those rare elements are not easy to recycle out from electronic compounds whereas the energy used to produce my 31Yr old Land Rover is still in use (not 10 years as per the study).

regards
Andy

drmarkf 22nd April 2019 10:06 AM

Re: Electric Vehicles Emit more CO2 than Diesel
 
Nothing new there, Dave. However, you need to delete the word ‘pollute’ in your post and replace it with something like ‘release much more CO2’.

I assume you’re not arguing for ignoring the 30,000 premature deaths in the U.K. per year caused by vehicle emissions on our roads, so pollution as defined by that is indeed vastly worse with old diesel engines (those not meeting the latest NCAP standards), especially the very oldest. Those are usually commercial vehicles.

If we were to switch rapidly away from diesels in the U.K. we’d lose all chance of meeting our agreed CO2 emission target.

The latest NCAP diesels have much lower CO2 emissions than the latest petrol cars, and as good or better particulate pollution emissions. So the current media and government downer on all diesels is actually damaging to all sorts of genuinely important interests.

The problem with electric vehicles at the moment is that although they don’t produce particulates on the road, most of their electric power is produced in fossil-fuel powered generating stations: the current administration’s appalling withdrawal of encouragement for investment in renewable energy is partly to blame for the U.K. slowing its investment in this, but the inevitable economics of the market have now turned somewhat in that direction regardless of their kowtowing to the fossil fuel industry.

The big advantage of electric vehicles regardless of how their power is generated is that even coal and gas power stations aren’t situated in city centres where your children will be breathing it in and contributing to the 30,000.

Ricoh 22nd April 2019 10:28 AM

Re: Electric Vehicles Emit more CO2 than Diesel
 
What about the folks (I hate the bastardisation of the English language) mining neodymium on minimum wage, probably at subsistence or sub-subsistence levels suffering serious health risks. I suspect the average bod doesn't give these poor sods a second thought as they enter the flashy car showroom.

In the grand scale of things, my intuition informs me that the environment would be in a better place if cars were kept and used for 10 years before replacement. There is a tremendous cost to the environment to manufacture new cars.

Naughty Nigel 22nd April 2019 11:50 AM

Re: Electric Vehicles Emit more CO2 than Diesel
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by drmarkf (Post 478906)
I assume you’re not arguing for ignoring the 30,000 premature deaths in the U.K. per year caused by vehicle emissions on our roads, so pollution as defined by that is indeed vastly worse with old diesel engines (those not meeting the latest NCAP standards), especially the very oldest. Those are usually commercial vehicles.

You are making several wild assumptions there Mark.
Firstly, that the emissions responsible for those 30,000 premature deaths all originate from motor vehicle exhausts, and specifically road vehicles. I am not convinced that they do.

Secondly, that fossil fuel fired power stations are emission free and won't cause wider global damage. I am not convinced that they are;

Thirdly, that the materials used to produce electric cars and their battery systems are inherently safe. I am not convinced that they are either;

Fourthly, that there is no risk attached to particulate matter originating from rubber tyres and brake friction materials; both of which are used in ICE and electric vehicles;

Finally, that there would be no deaths as a result of the manufacture or use of electric vehicles. For example, how many more people might be run over by silent cars than by clattering diesels?

As I see it, engineers have been very successful in cleaning up pollution so that we no longer realise that we are polluting. The smoke from steam trains and old diesel engines was obvious, and to a degree self-limiting because there were limits to what we could function in, and what we would put up with. Electric vehicles are just an exercise in moving pollution somewhere else to people who don't matter as much, and don't have as many votes as those in the big cities.

The DPF systems fitted to diesel engines reduce particulate emissions to very low levels. Modern petrol engines are also very clean, but the remaining particulates are tiny. Crucially, these particulates are of 'respirable size', and are much smaller than those from older engines.

My guess it that whilst the exhaust fumes from a thirty year old diesel Land Rover may be unpleasant, they may actually be less harmful to us than the exhaust fumes from a Euro 6 Discovery.

Somebody recently said that the private motor car is a failed 20th century experiment which should be scrapped. I tend to agree. Rather than making pollution cleaner we really need to find ways of polluting less.

TimP 22nd April 2019 12:45 PM

Re: Electric Vehicles Emit more CO2 than Diesel
 
Nigel, do you suggest we all sit in the dark at home?
Also, Steve, whilst you are right about the effects on the miners, if you were to take away their jobs they wouldn’t thank you for that. Give them an alternative and it would be different though.
Sadly the world is an unfair, overpopulated place, we all have to die of something (hopefully before dementia gets us) and the rich (mostly) don’t care about anything except themselves. Ever it was and ever it shall be I expect.

RobEW 22nd April 2019 01:39 PM

Re: Electric Vehicles Emit more CO2 than Diesel
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ricoh (Post 478910)
...

In the grand scale of things, my intuition informs me that the environment would be in a better place if cars were kept and used for 10 years before replacement. There is a tremendous cost to the environment to manufacture new cars.

Deliberately built-in obsolescence in all manner of technology, including white goods and other products like soft furnishings and clothes, is a massive environmental scandal which seemingly no government is prepared to address. Durability of most products has gone down and down. Cars however seem to have bucked the trend. In my memory (40+ years ago) a car which did 100k miles was extraordinary, whereas now it is normal.

Naughty Nigel 22nd April 2019 08:01 PM

Re: Electric Vehicles Emit more CO2 than Diesel
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TimP (Post 478921)
Nigel, do you suggest we all sit in the dark at home?
Also, Steve, whilst you are right about the effects on the miners, if you were to take away their jobs they wouldn’t thank you for that. Give them an alternative and it would be different though.
Sadly the world is an unfair, overpopulated place, we all have to die of something (hopefully before dementia gets us) and the rich (mostly) don’t care about anything except themselves. Ever it was and ever it shall be I expect.

Where did I suggest that we should sit in the dark?

Transport of all kinds uses thousands of times more energy and creates thousands of times more pollution than light bulbs.

The private motor car is probably the most inefficient and polluting mode of land transport ever devised, especially if only the driver is on board. Even air travel generates fewer KG of CO2 per passenger mile travelled.

The fact is that a large percentage of road journeys and flights are unnecessary, or could be avoided with better planning and organisation.

The problem is that successive governments have come to rely on the vast revenue generated by road users so whatever the claimed risks to health caused by motor vehicles they are unlikely to want to reduce road travel any time soon.

Naughty Nigel 22nd April 2019 08:24 PM

Re: Electric Vehicles Emit more CO2 than Diesel
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by RobEW (Post 478923)
Deliberately built-in obsolescence in all manner of technology, including white goods and other products like soft furnishings and clothes, is a massive environmental scandal which seemingly no government is prepared to address. Durability of most products has gone down and down. Cars however seem to have bucked the trend. In my memory (40+ years ago) a car which did 100k miles was extraordinary, whereas now it is normal.

I would agree that modern cars have bucked the obsolescence trend in some ways, but many perfectly serviceable vehicles are scrapped prematurely because the cost and complexity of electronics makes even simple repairs uneconomic.

A few weeks ago the coil pack failed on our Vx Corsa. Thankfully this was covered by the extended warranty so the job was entrusted to our local Vauxhall Main Dealer, which curiously enough shares its name with Robin Hood's forest!

Anyhow, I told Service Reception exactly what the problem was, but was told that they would need to plug it into the computer to check the fault codes, and that the extended warranty may not cover this. Cost £60 + VAT.

Around 10.30 am I received a call from the garage informing me that I was right and that the coil pack was indeed faulty. The replacement part was £247.00 + VAT, which was covered by the warranty, but I was told that the job specification required new spark plugs to be fitted. I argued the toss pointing out that the car had only covered 24,000 miles but was given some bullshit about not being able to warranty the replacement coil pack unless new plugs were fitted! Cost £72.46 + VAT!

Now I can remember when a set of Champion N9Y spark plugs could be bought for £1/-/- (5/- each), whilst a Joe Lucas, Prince of Darkness ignition coil cost about £3/-/-. How and why have these parts become so expensive?

All in all this very simple job added up to £554.95 including labour (for a two minute job), so is it any wonder that so many perfectly good vehicles are scrapped?

Graham_of_Rainham 22nd April 2019 08:34 PM

Re: Electric Vehicles Emit more CO2 than Diesel
 
Anyone who is serious about tackling the problem of climate change and lowering their households carbon footprint, has to take serious consideration of their lifestyle choices.

Pet ownership has a much bigger carbon footprint than car ownership

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffmcm.../#2cada88413a6

wornish 22nd April 2019 08:49 PM

Re: Electric Vehicles Emit more CO2 than Diesel
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Graham_of_Rainham (Post 478957)
Anyone who is serious about tackling the problem of climate change and lowering their households carbon footprint, has to take serious consideration of their lifestyle choices.

Pet ownership has a much bigger carbon footprint than car ownership

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffmcm.../#2cada88413a6

Unbelievable, don't know where to even begin with the Forbes article.

So no pets - that will fix it.

Talk about lost the plot - jeesh! Virtue signaling in overdrive.

By the way, the climate has changed and will continue to change because of things way more significant than pet ownership - perhaps look at Sun activity, for example, just a thought.

Graham_of_Rainham 22nd April 2019 09:39 PM

Re: Electric Vehicles Emit more CO2 than Diesel
 
People cannot change the activity of the sun. So we must look at the things we can change.

Meat production is by far the best place to start.

Plus it’s not just one source of data saying that pets are a problem
https://www.theverge.com/2017/8/4/16...climate-change

Reforestation is another huge change that needs to be made.

As for cars, simply having the correct tyre pressure can make a significant difference to fuel consumption. When I undertook an advanced drivers course, the first thing they said was they would save me money on fuel and I would more often than not cut my journey time.

Jax 22nd April 2019 10:10 PM

Re: Electric Vehicles Emit more CO2 than Diesel
 
I don't pretend to be anywhere near as technically knowledgeable as many on here about climate change or the reasons that cause it.

One thing I don't understand is whilst I have seen many comments blaming diesel cars and now of all things even pet ownership, little has been said regarding the effects of the hundreds of thousands of passenger jets in the skies every minute of the day and night. Is this because aviation fuel does not have the same impact as diesel fuel or is it simply due to political or financial motives and far easier to blame car usage ? Surely the billions of gallons of aviation fuel burned by passenger aircraft every hour comes close or exceeds the amount consumed by the worlds vehicles.

Maybe someone with technical knowledge can explain ?

Jax

Naughty Nigel 22nd April 2019 10:31 PM

Re: Electric Vehicles Emit more CO2 than Diesel
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jax (Post 478972)
I don't pretend to be anywhere near as technically knowledgeable as many on here about climate change or the reasons that cause it.

One thing I don't understand is whilst I have seen many comments blaming diesel cars and now of all things even pet ownership, little has been said regarding the effects of the hundreds of thousands of passenger jets in the skies every minute of the day and night. Is this because aviation fuel does not have the same impact as diesel fuel or is it simply due to political or financial motives and far easier to blame car usage ? Surely the billions of gallons of aviation fuel burned by passenger aircraft every hour comes close or exceeds the amount consumed by the worlds vehicles.

Maybe someone with technical knowledge can explain ?

Jax

I share your concerns in this regard. The fact that CO2 is generated at 40,000' must also be a factor, although I believe jet aircraft do help to burn methane in the earth's upper atmosphere which is around four times more powerful as a greenhouse gas than CO2.

That said, the fuel burnt per passenger mile by modern aircraft compares very favourably with private motor vehicles.

As far as I know there is little or no tax on aviation fuel; hence the reason it is dyed to prevent use in road vehicles. (I used to use Avgas 100LL in my racing bike. Avgas is coloured blue.)

For aviation fuel tax to be workable there would need to be consensus between governments otherwise airlines would simply route via countries where aviation fuel tax was lowest. This was one of the reasons for Shannon Airport in Southern Ireland becoming an important stopping off point for transatlantic flights in times of old. The Duty Free shop there was also one of the biggest rip-offs I have ever come across in my life. Oddly enough, everything is priced in $USD. Gullible or what? :)

MJ224 23rd April 2019 07:10 AM

Re: Electric Vehicles Emit more CO2 than Diesel
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by wornish (Post 478902)
A recent study in Germany shows that electric vehicles actually pollute more than Diesel ones. Who would have believed it?


http://brusselstimes.com/business/te...an-study-shows

We saw a summary n here several months ago. If I remember, Electric cars were slightly more expensive to build and the same for disposal. But fuel wise a lot cheaper to run. It's all a bit "how long is a piece of string"...…..

If you take into account oil exploration, refining, shipping, storage and local distribution, Fossil fuel has already racked up quite a massive CO2 footprint.

My little all electric car gets its energy from wind and sun, via Ecotricity, thus its CO2 footprint is small, as the cost of motoring (fuel-wise) shows.

But as we have already discussed here, all personal transport is expensive, and costs...…...even a bicycle costs CO2 to build. Oh Shanks pony is quite cheap, but still needs leather and food to sustain...….

Now how long was that piece of string...………...*chr

Naughty Nigel 23rd April 2019 07:38 AM

Re: Electric Vehicles Emit more CO2 than Diesel
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MJ224 (Post 478981)
If you take into account oil exploration, refining, shipping, storage and local distribution. Fossil fuel has already racked up quite a massive CO2 footprint.

My little all electric car gets its energy from wind and sun, via Ecotricity, thus its CO2 footprint is small, as the cost of motoring (fuel-wise) shows.

For that matter so has the sustainable industry business. Wind turbines are responsible for a lot of CO2 emissions at the building and construction stages, (so called Grey Energy), whilst it has been claimed that solar panels require more energy to produce them than they will ever generate in service. I am not sure if that still holds true, but of course energy used and emissions created in China or India on our behalf don't count towards the UK's CO2 quota. :rolleyes:

Edit: I would also suggest that the reason your electric car has low running (fuel) costs is that government has yet to find a way of applying road fuel duty on electricity used to charge electric cars. Enjoy it whilst you can because at some point the Chancellor will need to collect the money currently being lost to electric and hybrid vehicles.

But never mind cats, dogs and motor cars, I read an interesting article recently where it was claimed that the concrete, cement and construction industries were jointly responsible for significantly greater CO2 emissions than the global aviation industry!

Whatever the facts behind these stories it seems that we will all have to face some uncomfortable truths in the near future.

TimP 23rd April 2019 08:44 AM

Re: Electric Vehicles Emit more CO2 than Diesel
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Naughty Nigel (Post 478975)
I share your concerns in this regard. The fact that CO2 is generated at 40,000' must also be a factor, although I believe jet aircraft do help to burn methane in the earth's upper atmosphere which is around four times more powerful as a greenhouse gas than CO2.

That said, the fuel burnt per passenger mile by modern aircraft compares very favourably with private motor vehicles.

As far as I know there is little or no tax on aviation fuel; hence the reason it is dyed to prevent use in road vehicles. (I used to use Avgas 100LL in my racing bike. Avgas is coloured blue.)

For aviation fuel tax to be workable there would need to be consensus between governments otherwise airlines would simply route via countries where aviation fuel tax was lowest. This was one of the reasons for Shannon Airport in Southern Ireland becoming an important stopping off point for transatlantic flights in times of old. The Duty Free shop there was also one of the biggest rip-offs I have ever come across in my life. Oddly enough, everything is priced in $USD. Gullible or what? :)

Aviation fuel (passenger aircraft) is basically paraffin and won’t run a normal car anyway.
Talking of duty free shops, I always visit them when at LHR and chuckle at the price of the ‘discounted’ memory cards. Do people actually think they are saving money??

Perhaps we ought to look at stopping all motor sport and banning climate change conferences too.

DerekW 23rd April 2019 09:08 AM

Re: Electric Vehicles Emit more CO2 than Diesel
 
The basic cause of CO2 is life. So reduce life, do not create so many humans that are going to reproduce and use cars etc.
Even an heir and a spare is prolific breeding and causing unneccessary numbers of humans - If you have more than one child you are the problem.

Otto 23rd April 2019 09:26 AM

Re: Electric Vehicles Emit more CO2 than Diesel
 
Yep, there are too many people. Virtually every problem the human race faces is down to over-population. Sure it would be better if cars lasted longer and people didn't throw perfectly good clothes away but then there would be more people out of work. Our way of life has become inherently unsustainable.

TimP 23rd April 2019 09:51 AM

Re: Electric Vehicles Emit more CO2 than Diesel
 
Agree, far too many people and the ones currently popping out in India and China are going to expect the sort of stuff that contributes to climate change. As it is the popular holiday destinations are getting swamped with the nouveau riche Chinese clutching their selfie sticks and flying annoying drones.
The Catholic Church in the West holds a lot of responsibility given its refusal to allow birth control.

TimP 23rd April 2019 09:53 AM

Re: Electric Vehicles Emit more CO2 than Diesel
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Otto (Post 478997)
Yep, there are too many people. Virtually every problem the human race faces is down to over-population. Sure it would be better if cars lasted longer and people didn't throw perfectly good clothes away but then there would be more people out of work. Our way of life has become inherently unsustainable.

Governments and big business continue to plough ahead with automation in search of ever greater profits, putting people out of work as a matter of course, yet no one seems to have tackled the problem of where the spending money will come from once no one works and everyone is on benefits.

Ian 23rd April 2019 10:13 AM

Re: Electric Vehicles Emit more CO2 than Diesel
 
I take the report with a pinch of salt. If you source your electricity from a renewable supplier, for example. Also electric cars are inherently more efficient than conventional cars (40% or thereabouts). Also it's a German report and the Germans have a vested interest in diesel :D

Ian

Jax 23rd April 2019 11:06 AM

Re: Electric Vehicles Emit more CO2 than Diesel
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DerekW (Post 478993)
The basic cause of CO2 is life. So reduce life, do not create so many humans that are going to reproduce and use cars etc.
Even an heir and a spare is prolific breeding and causing unneccessary numbers of humans - If you have more than one child you are the problem.

I'm sure that makes members of the forum with more than one child feel so much better :mad:

Blaming worldwide over population is very simple obvious statement to make however, the real skill would be if you suggested a viable solution. *yes

So what do you suggest ? Worldwide mandatory sterilisation of anyone of child bearing age for a period of years ? Do as the Chinese did and limit parents to one child ? ( A law which I understand has now been revoked ) We would all agree overpopulation is a problem and has been for many years but other than introducing draconian, inhuman laws something that would be virtually impossible to rectify.

For the record, I can state that in your eyes, I am not one of the "problems" having never had children despite us both wanting them so again, in your eyes, I am obviously a valued member of what you consider to be an ideal society.

Jax

Ian 23rd April 2019 12:22 PM

Re: Electric Vehicles Emit more CO2 than Diesel
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jax (Post 479015)
I'm sure that makes members of the forum with more than one child feel so much better :mad:

Blaming worldwide over population is very simple obvious statement to make however, the real skill would be if you suggested a viable solution. *yes

So what do you suggest ? Worldwide mandatory sterilisation of anyone of child bearing age for a period of years ? Do as the Chinese did and limit parents to one child ? ( A law which I understand has now been revoked ) We would all agree overpopulation is a problem and has been for many years but other than introducing draconian, inhuman laws something that would be virtually impossible to rectify.

For the record, I can state that in your eyes, I am not one of the "problems" having never had children despite us both wanting them so again, in your eyes, I am obviously a valued member of what you consider to be an ideal society.

Jax

I have two children and I am not offended by Derek's observation.

Over population is a fact. How to address it is the challenge. But over-population is just one of many challenges. We all need to react to pollution, global warming and sustainability in general. It could be a positive challenge in the long run.

Ian

TimP 23rd April 2019 02:10 PM

Re: Electric Vehicles Emit more CO2 than Diesel
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jax (Post 479015)

Blaming worldwide over population is very simple obvious statement to make however, the real skill would be if you suggested a viable solution. *yes

So what do you suggest ? Worldwide mandatory sterilisation of anyone of child bearing age for a period of years ? Do as the Chinese did and limit parents to one child ? ( A law which I understand has now been revoked ) We would all agree overpopulation is a problem and has been for many years but other than introducing draconian, inhuman laws something that would be virtually impossible to rectify.

For the record, I can state that in your eyes, I am not one of the "problems" having never had children despite us both wanting them so again, in your eyes, I am obviously a valued member of what you consider to be an ideal society.

Jax

Generally? Sort out proper contraception, see previous comments re: the Catholic Church

Locally? Stop paying feckless girls to have babies they so obviously can’t afford.

shenstone 23rd April 2019 02:22 PM

Re: Electric Vehicles Emit more CO2 than Diesel
 
Folk, this discussion is starting to get into areas that can be personally upsetting. Just a reminder to be nice to each other.

DerekW 23rd April 2019 03:17 PM

Re: Electric Vehicles Emit more CO2 than Diesel
 
It is because serious discussion involving upsetting discussion is not taking place that we are in the clag that we are in.

Jax 23rd April 2019 03:48 PM

Re: Electric Vehicles Emit more CO2 than Diesel
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DerekW (Post 479039)
It is because serious discussion involving upsetting discussion is not taking place that we are in the clag that we are in.

Agreed Derek but as past experience proves, serious discussion in the Lounge usually involves slightly heated comments between mature adults resulting in the thread being closed. Probably best to keep to topics that don't involve anything upsetting. *yes

Jax

wornish 23rd April 2019 03:57 PM

Re: Electric Vehicles Emit more CO2 than Diesel
 
If we can't talk politics and we now can't talk about CO2 emissions then what is allowed in the lounge? Anything but real life seems to be the only answer*yes

Jax 23rd April 2019 04:14 PM

Re: Electric Vehicles Emit more CO2 than Diesel
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by wornish (Post 479042)
If we can't talk politics and we now can't talk about CO2 emissions then what is allowed in the lounge? Anything but real life seems to be the only answer*yes

As this is a "family oriented forum" there is always children's toys, baking, fashion, holidays, gardening, family outings, plenty to occupy discussion between like minded members. Anything that doesn't involve the use of "rich language" serious mature discussion, or upsetting topics between mature adults seems allowable :)

How's the weather where you are Dave ? *chr

Jax

OM USer 23rd April 2019 04:22 PM

Re: Electric Vehicles Emit more CO2 than Diesel
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Naughty Nigel (Post 478982)
...I would also suggest that the reason your electric car has low running (fuel) costs is that government has yet to find a way of applying road fuel duty on electricity used to charge electric cars. Enjoy it whilst you can because at some point the Chancellor will need to collect the money currently being lost to electric and hybrid vehicles....

You need to have your electrcity supply upgraded if you want to fast charge your car. It wouldn't take much to have this fed via a different meter priced at a different rate to include some form of tax. I recall some discussion of banning slow charge vehicles from charging at motorway services because they end up being parked for too long - so older electric vehicles will not be able to travel further than 50 miles or so from "home".

Ian 23rd April 2019 04:24 PM

Re: Electric Vehicles Emit more CO2 than Diesel
 
It IS possible to have a respectful discussion about serious topics that involve difficult issues, including politics, etc. and where politely agreeing to disagree is good. Unfortunately, we have to step in because people appear to not realise this or forget.

Ian

wornish 23rd April 2019 04:31 PM

Re: Electric Vehicles Emit more CO2 than Diesel
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jax (Post 479045)
As this is a "family oriented forum" there is always children's toys, baking, fashion, holidays, gardening, family outings, plenty to occupy discussion between like minded members. Anything that doesn't involve the use of "rich language" serious mature discussion, or upsetting topics between mature adults seems allowable :)

How's the weather where you are Dave ? *chr

Jax



Weather is going downhill fast here ;)

Ian 23rd April 2019 05:00 PM

Re: Electric Vehicles Emit more CO2 than Diesel
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by OM USer (Post 479046)
You need to have your electrcity supply upgraded if you want to fast charge your car. It wouldn't take much to have this fed via a different meter priced at a different rate to include some form of tax. I recall some discussion of banning slow charge vehicles from charging at motorway services because they end up being parked for too long - so older electric vehicles will not be able to travel further than 50 miles or so from "home".

I'm looking to have a wall unit to charge the Tesla at home but the only modification will be an additional breaker to handle 32A of current. That will provide around 7KW of charging and that translates into approximately 20 miles range per hour of charging.

It's not super fast but if you got home at 8PM and left for work the following 7AM you'd have 11 hours of charge, potentially (no pun intended!), or about 220 miles of range charged in that time period. You don't want to use very fast charging all the time as it hastens the rate of capacity degradation.

Some people have had 3-phase electrics wired in for their chargers and this is definitely faster but I would guess there are additional costs.

The nice thing about Teslas is that you can use the Supercharger network and for many owners of older cars it will be free. If you don't have to share the current with another car you could see a 50% (100+ miles depending on your driving and the battery pack fitted) battery charge in as little as 20 minutes.

Let's be honest about road tax and petrol duty - it hasn't been used for funding roads exclusively for a very long time. I certainly expect EVs to be taxed sooner rather than later but I also feel the tax rate should be lower than for more polluting vehicles. New Teslas and other expensive EVs over £40,000 are already taxed over £300 a year thanks to a new luxury car tax that also applies to conventional cars of the same values.

Ian

shenstone 23rd April 2019 05:16 PM

Re: Electric Vehicles Emit more CO2 than Diesel
 
Its the Soco TC we are gettinghttp://supersoco.co.uk/tc/and if that's successful for the Mrs I am thinking of maybe the new TC Max https://www.avonmotorcycles.co.uk/pr...r-soco-tc-max/


When I factored in the cost of new batteries every 4 years or so the savings were not what they suggest, but for going into the city in a non noisy/non emissions manner it seems a really good option

We can charge these from a 13 amp household socket as they have a small fraction of the batteries to charge that an electric car has

Regards
Andy

Otto 23rd April 2019 05:19 PM

Re: Electric Vehicles Emit more CO2 than Diesel
 
Installing a 3-phase supply could be very costly. Have a look here.

MJ224 23rd April 2019 05:23 PM

Re: Electric Vehicles Emit more CO2 than Diesel
 
My Citroen just charges up on the house mains in about 6 hours, depending how the battery is depleted during the day/night. I guess the bigger the battery the bigger/longer the charge time. If I use a motorway charger with Ecotricity, the charge takes maybe 25 minutes. But cars with bigger batteries might well take longer. I don't know...… My experience is that the fast chargers are the only way to go, slow chargers are just no good if you have to wait 6 hours to charge up, unless its overnight of course.

To answer Nigels POV, yes at the mo I pay 5% VAT on my home electric charge. But right or wrong the government is trying to reduce pollution and CO2, thus is able to give a help with low tax, and even zero road tax. As for wind turbines taking more power to build than the oil system, just think how many wind turbines could be built for the cost of just one 100,000 ton oil tanker, never mind the rest of the system...………….*chr

Don't worry about it, use the system. My mode of transport is as good and probably less polluting than yours....

Serious discussion, I am not trying to belittle your arguments/reasoning...…….but I do have a realistic POV...………...*chr*chr

MJ224 23rd April 2019 05:28 PM

Re: Electric Vehicles Emit more CO2 than Diesel
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by shenstone (Post 479054)

When I factored in the cost of new batteries every 4 years or so the savings were not what they suggest, but for going into the city in a non noisy/non emissions manner it seems a really good option

We can charge these from a 13 amp household socket as they have a small fraction of the batteries to charge that an electric car has

Regards
Andy

Andy, my batteries are now coming up to 8 years old, and are still good. Re my earlier comment that the original Citroen Zero claimed a range of 93 miles, and now my range is about 50 miles, the manufacturers claim is very likely to be extremely optimistic, as are miles per gallon. I very much doubt the original car was able to do 93 miles, without going on a long down hill trip with a strong following wind...……..*chr

shenstone 23rd April 2019 05:45 PM

Re: Electric Vehicles Emit more CO2 than Diesel
 
I'll hope for that with our batteries. They are warranted for 3 so I don't want to expect too much

Regards
Andy

Ian 23rd April 2019 06:14 PM

Re: Electric Vehicles Emit more CO2 than Diesel
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by shenstone (Post 479059)
I'll hope for that with our batteries. They are warranted for 3 so I don't want to expect too much

Regards
Andy

Teslas (well, the Model S we're aiming at) have an 8 year, infinite mile warranty on both the battery pack and drive unit. There is also no limit on the number of owners during the warranty period. So we'll have 5 years remaining.

The new Model 3s batteries I understand are limited to 100,000 miles or 120,000 miles of warranty.

Ian


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