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-   -   No Manual Focus Assist with the 17mm 1.8??? (https://e-group.uk.net/forum/showthread.php?t=44994)

Talkingdrum 4th May 2017 06:36 PM

No Manual Focus Assist with the 17mm 1.8???
 
I purchased a 17mm 1.8 this afternoon and I'm surprised to find that when I pull the focus ring back, the camera goes into MF I have peaking but there is no magnification for MF assist. I checked the settings, clutch is operational, MF Assist is "On" for both peaking and magnification If I put the camera into MF on the body I get the magnification, but not if I use the focus ring to enable MF (and I am definitely in MF because it says so in the view finder and I can focus). Incidentally if I have MF set on the body I have magnification but if I pull the focus ring back I lose it.
I'm new to this system (OMD MI MKII) and the only only other lens I have is the 12-100 and that works just fine. Pull the ring back try focusing and I have magnification.
Is it just that 17mm doesn't have that facility. I can't understand why that would be. If that is the case I will be very disappointed as I only bought this lens over the Panasonic 20mm for this very feature. If I have to change to MF on the body I may as well have bought the Panasonic. Firmware is up to date on both body and camera.
Is it a faulty lens?
Am I missing something in settings?

PeterBirder 4th May 2017 08:11 PM

Re: No Manual Focus Assist with the 17mm 1.8???
 
This is how this lens works.

See this recent thread and specifically my post #4. http://e-group.uk.net/forum/showthread.php?t=44905

Regards.*chr

Talkingdrum 4th May 2017 11:50 PM

Re: No Manual Focus Assist with the 17mm 1.8???
 
I'm absolutely astonished! This feature is one of the selling points of this lens. Nowhere did I read in any review that if you employ this method of switching to manual focus you will completely disable all manual focus assists! What's the point in that? It's utterly useless - no in fact is worse than useless because it's something that you might accidentally engage and thereby disable MF assists. I'm going to have to remember that every time I use this thing I'm going to have to go into settings and disable the clutch or just be very careful.
Am I missing something here? Isn't this the most ridiculous implementation of a feature imaginable? Does anyone actually use the clutch on this lens? I'm speechless.

Talkingdrum 5th May 2017 12:13 AM

Re: No Manual Focus Assist with the 17mm 1.8???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by PeterBirder (Post 413636)
This is how this lens works.

See this recent thread and specifically my post #4. http://e-group.uk.net/forum/showthread.php?t=44905

Regards.*chr

Your answer in that thread doesn't hold any water. Certainly on my copy if I turn the ring to infinity the infinity mark goes past the marker nearly 4mm (which is a lot on a lens that size) so clearly the scale is not even close to being accurate. I've got a good mind to return it for that reason alone.

Phill D 5th May 2017 06:30 AM

Re: No Manual Focus Assist with the 17mm 1.8???
 
Well I've just learnt that my 17mm has a pull back mechanism :o Had to get it out to convince myself and you are correct. So I guess luckily your issue wont effect me. Sounds like you should send it back and get the Panasonic lens if you originally preferred that one, although it doesn't sound as if it's going to solve your problem.

Bikie John 5th May 2017 08:48 AM

Re: No Manual Focus Assist with the 17mm 1.8???
 
I'm not sure, but I think the 17/1.8 was the first lens to have the MF clutch, so it is possible that it evolved with later models as a result of experience. Although it seems strange, because I would expect the functions that you talk about to be a function of firmware in the body rather than anything in the lens.

Which doesn't help with your current problem, of course :)

John

Bikie John 5th May 2017 08:49 AM

Re: No Manual Focus Assist with the 17mm 1.8???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Phill D (Post 413651)
Well I've just learnt that my 17mm has a pull back mechanism :o Had to get it out to convince myself and you are correct. So I guess luckily your issue wont effect me. Sounds like you should send it back and get the Panasonic lens if you originally preferred that one, although it doesn't sound as if it's going to solve your problem.

That must put you in a small minority of people who haven't engaged it accidentally and wondered why the camera won't focus Phill :D

John

Talkingdrum 5th May 2017 10:13 AM

Re: No Manual Focus Assist with the 17mm 1.8???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bikie John (Post 413658)
That must put you in a small minority of people who haven't engaged it accidentally and wondered why the camera won't focus Phill :D

John

You miss the point. I manual focus most of the time, to me you can hit focus on exactly what you want much quicker than faffing around with moving focus points in AF etc. It's not difficult to imagine a situation where I have the body set to MF, I see a shot lift the camera to capture that instant, try to focus (I for one, cannot focus quickly or to any degree of accuracy unassisted with a 17mm lens on a 4 thirds system), the assists don't kick in and in that moment lose a shot. Sure it would be a VERY rare scenario but my point remains valid - for manual photography this feature is LESS than useless. As a manual shooter, to me this lens would be better without this stupid functionality (and by that I mean engaging manual focus disables MF assists - think about that for a minute).
Maybe there is another person on this forum that shoots MF and can explain to me how useful it is?
I've slept on it overnight and it's going back this morning - it's just some sort of bad joke.

PeterBirder 5th May 2017 10:35 AM

Re: No Manual Focus Assist with the 17mm 1.8???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Talkingdrum (Post 413646)
Your answer in that thread doesn't hold any water. Certainly on my copy if I turn the ring to infinity the infinity mark goes past the marker nearly 4mm (which is a lot on a lens that size) so clearly the scale is not even close to being accurate. I've got a good mind to return it for that reason alone.

This feature is intended for use when "zone focusing" not as a means of selecting manual focus.

This link explains what zone focusing is and how to use it for "street photography" which is the main use these days.
https://www.streethunters.net/blog/2...t-photography/

Bikie John 5th May 2017 11:28 AM

Re: No Manual Focus Assist with the 17mm 1.8???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Talkingdrum (Post 413661)
You miss the point. I manual focus most of the time, to me you can hit focus on exactly what you want much quicker than faffing around with moving focus points in AF etc. It's not difficult to imagine a situation where I have the body set to MF, I see a shot lift the camera to capture that instant, try to focus (I for one, cannot focus quickly or to any degree of accuracy unassisted with a 17mm lens on a 4 thirds system), the assists don't kick in and in that moment lose a shot. Sure it would be a VERY rare scenario but my point remains valid - for manual photography this feature is LESS than useless. As a manual shooter, to me this lens would be better without this stupid functionality (and by that I mean engaging manual focus disables MF assists - think about that for a minute).
Maybe there is another person on this forum that shoots MF and can explain to me how useful it is?
I've slept on it overnight and it's going back this morning - it's just some sort of bad joke.

Sorry Talkingdrum - I (think I) understand your problem and don't wish to downplay it. My first response was to you, as an attempt to explain how it might have come about, even though that doesn't help you solve it.

My second response was an entirely flippant one to Phill - referring to the fact that we often have posts from people who have accidentally set the MF mode on without realising and then wonder why the lens won't AF.

John

pdk42 5th May 2017 11:45 AM

Re: No Manual Focus Assist with the 17mm 1.8???
 
I've used Olympus u43 for some time and I really don't agree with your view on this. Manual focusing of lenses like the 17 is sort of pointless IMHO since AF is so good. You say you don't like AF because you don't want to move the focus point around - but it's the same with MF really since unless you magnify the point you're focusing on the process is not sufficiently accurate. Peeking on the non-magnified view isn't a reliable-enough method. You need to use it on the magnified view, but even then even Olympus in the manual play down its accuracy.

As others have said, the clutch is really designed for zone focusing (for "street shooting"). If you really want manual focus then buy a Voigtlander 17.5. That's a much better option if MF is really your thing. However, Olympus's focus aid implementation lacks a " picture in picture " magnified area which to me makes it a pretty crude implementation. Panasonic do a much better one, as do Fuji.

Talkingdrum 5th May 2017 11:46 AM

Re: No Manual Focus Assist with the 17mm 1.8???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bikie John (Post 413666)
Sorry Talkingdrum - I (think I) understand your problem and don't wish to downplay it. My first response was to you, as an attempt to explain how it might have come about, even though that doesn't help you solve it.

My second response was an entirely flippant one to Phill - referring to the fact that we often have posts from people who have accidentally set the MF mode on without realising and then wonder why the lens won't AF.

John

Don't worry about it, I didn't take any offence. I'm just venting my frustration. I chose that as a light weight walk around over the Panasonic for that feature alone and I'm just astonished it behaves in that way. There may well be a technical reason that it can't be changed with a firmware update or it may be a marketing decision not to do it. Either way it's really not so important, it's definitely a "first world" problem.
I have sent the lens back and they are sending me the Panasonic 20mm in exchange. I know I am going to prefer the 40mm equivalent better because I always find 35mm a little too wide for my taste.

Talkingdrum 5th May 2017 12:06 PM

Re: No Manual Focus Assist with the 17mm 1.8???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by pdk42 (Post 413669)
I've used Olympus u43 for some time and I really don't agree with your view on this. Manual focusing of lenses like the 17 is sort of pointless IMHO since AF is so good. You say you don't like AF because you don't want to move the focus point around - but it's the same with MF really since unless you magnify the point you're focusing on the process is not sufficiently accurate. Peeking on the non-magnified view isn't a reliable-enough method. You need to use it on the magnified view, but even then even Olympus in the manual play down its accuracy.

As others have said, the clutch is really designed for zone focusing (for "street shooting"). If you really want manual focus then buy a Voigtlander 17.5. That's a much better option if MF is really your thing. However, Olympus's focus aid implementation lacks a " picture in picture " magnified area which to me makes it a pretty crude implementation. Panasonic do a much better one, as do Fuji.

AF is so good, but the problem is that you are still relying on the camera to choose precisely what it is that you want to focus on. To me it's just annoying most of the time. Kind of like messing around with exposure compensation - take control of the camera, have it manual and it's never needed. With the OMD 1 MKii if you are in MF then you can have it set so that the moment you touch the focus ring magnification kicks in (unless the MF clutch is engaged of course!). There's a ridiculous autofocus feature on this camera where you can choose a focus point and then zoom in in that point and then choose another focus point with in that so that you get a more accurate focus point for what you want. By the time you've done all a quick twist of the focus ring in manual, a split second you're bang on.
At the end of the day each to their own. Because of AF a lot of people don't even try manual focusing. It's far superior in my opinion and I'm sure that if people tried it many would not go back.

Talkingdrum 5th May 2017 12:10 PM

Re: No Manual Focus Assist with the 17mm 1.8???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by pdk42 (Post 413669)
I've used Olympus u43 for some time and I really don't agree with your view on this. Manual focusing of lenses like the 17 is sort of pointless IMHO since AF is so good. You say you don't like AF because you don't want to move the focus point around - but it's the same with MF really since unless you magnify the point you're focusing on the process is not sufficiently accurate. Peeking on the non-magnified view isn't a reliable-enough method. You need to use it on the magnified view, but even then even Olympus in the manual play down its accuracy.


As others have said, the clutch is really designed for zone focusing (for "street shooting"). If you really want manual focus then buy a Voigtlander 17.5. That's a much better option if MF is really your thing. However, Olympus's focus aid implementation lacks a " picture in picture " magnified area which to me makes it a pretty crude implementation. Panasonic do a much better one, as do Fuji.

AF is so good, but the problem is that you are still relying on the camera to choose precisely what it is that you want to focus on. To me it's just annoying most of the time. Kind of like messing around with exposure compensation - take control of the camera, have it manual and it's never needed. With the OMD 1 MKii if you are in MF then you can have it set so that the moment you touch the focus ring magnification kicks in (unless the MF clutch is engaged of course!). There's a ridiculous autofocus feature on this camera where you can choose a focus point and then zoom in in that point and then choose another focus point with in that so that you get a more accurate focus point for what you want. By the time you've done all a quick twist of the focus ring in manual, a split second you're bang on.
At the end of the day each to their own. Because of AF a lot of people don't even try manual focusing. It's far superior in my opinion and I'm sure that if people tried it many would not go back.

I totally agree with you about Voigtlander 17.5, but I have chosen this camera so I have a light weight alternative to carrying around my DSLR system or medium format film cameras. I'm probably expecting too much of a Micro 4/3 system to behave like a professional tool.

Ricoh 5th May 2017 03:24 PM

Re: No Manual Focus Assist with the 17mm 1.8???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by pdk42 (Post 413669)
I've used Olympus u43 for some time and I really don't agree with your view on this. Manual focusing of lenses like the 17 is sort of pointless IMHO since AF is so good.

As others have said, the clutch is really designed for zone focusing (for "street shooting"). If you really want manual focus then buy a Voigtlander 17.5. That's a much better option if MF is really your thing. However, Olympus's focus aid implementation lacks a " picture in picture " magnified area which to me makes it a pretty crude implementation. Panasonic do a much better one, as do Fuji.

AF is really quick on the Oly 17 and also on the Panny 15, but really quick isn't quick enough for street. Only zone cuts the mustard.

In general the trouble using AF lenses in MF mode is the short focus throw. For accurate MF, it's desirable to have as large a throw as possible (as long as doesn't exceed 360 degrees :) ). However the AF system needs a short focus throw for speed of focus acquisition and the two needs are mutually incompatible.


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