Olympus UK E-System User Group

Olympus UK E-System User Group (https://e-group.uk.net/forum/index.php)
-   The lounge (https://e-group.uk.net/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=23)
-   -   Business Economics (https://e-group.uk.net/forum/showthread.php?t=38439)

Graham_of_Rainham 4th July 2015 12:27 PM

Business Economics
 
Maths, I'm ok with. On a good day I kinda get accountancy...

How on earth is a replacement Doorbell Push 12 + P&P, when they sell the whole kit for 13 inc P&P :confused:

Ianf 4th July 2015 04:59 PM

Re: Business Economics
 
Its like when you buy a "package" holiday, when you try to change an individual component it ends up costing more,
Like a clutch kit for a car, the lot will cost you a ton but individually its about 140 ?
they are trying to encourage you to buy the lot even though you may not need it .
ALL THE LOT is so much, individually its more,

DerekW 4th July 2015 07:35 PM

Re: Business Economics
 
Less variations mean less part numbers to stock and ship. Indicates that the individual parts are relatively cheap

Naughty Nigel 4th July 2015 08:07 PM

Re: Business Economics
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Graham_of_Rainham (Post 350953)
Maths, I'm ok with. On a good day I kinda get accountancy...

How on earth is a replacement Doorbell Push 12 + P&P, when they sell the whole kit for 13 inc P&P :confused:

It's all about SKU's (Stock Keeping Units).

Irrespective of factory gate cost, the cost of packaging, shipping and selling any one SKU from the same factory is much the same, and takes just as much effort, so it costs almost as much to buy one item as the complete kit.

If you look around any shop you will see that many individual packages have the same price, irrespective of their value.

Zuiko 5th July 2015 10:08 AM

Re: Business Economics
 
What does annoy me is when Tesco has a special offer on individual tins of sweetcorn (for example), which makes it cheaper to buy 4 separate tins than a pack of 4. :mad:

Graham_of_Rainham 5th July 2015 12:25 PM

Re: Business Economics
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuiko (Post 351064)
What does annoy me is when Tesco has a special offer on individual tins of sweetcorn (for example), which makes it cheaper to buy 4 separate tins than a pack of 4. :mad:

ALLWAYS look for that! Today two 250g tubs of flora are 0.59 cheaper than one 500g. I like when it works in our favor, but often it's all about them... :(


My 1TB USB 3.0 External Drive failed last week.

A replacement of the actual 1TB HDD is 54. A new 2TB USB 3.0 unit with power supply and lead is 59.95 inc P&P...

Hopefully it will arrive on Monday. :cool:

KeithL 6th July 2015 10:27 AM

Re: Business Economics
 
Don't talk to me about HDDs!! We have two Panasonic HHD/DVD TV recorders. The first, older one, failed after about three years. Guess what? The HDD is fine. But the firmware - which is updated, no, "updated", from time to time - is totally screwed up. We bought a newer Panasonic one with a four times as big HDD.

All went well for a time, then it started to play up, too. Now it's just over 12 months old, and it is a PAIN! Turn it on, select Guide, and it promptly says "The unit will now go into self test and then turn off" Ten minutes later, it's turned off, so try again. Chances are the same happens again. So we miss the starting ten minutes or more of the programme we want to record. One time it recorded precisely one hour of.....blank disc. Another time, it's recorded fine....without sound. After our holiday last month, it couldn't find the guide at all. It seems to be back to normal again now.........for now.

It's been back whence we bought it. They say there is no problem.

I've had this before with a similar device of different make. If the software fails, you have no redress; the shop hides behind the requirement of consumer law that the purchaser must be able to prove it's faulty. How do you prove the firmware is faulty? Perhaps more to the point, why do we have to accept the firmware being updated, when it's already performing OK, and thereby risk it not being OK?

The manufacturers get around the law by the old dodge - the software is merely licensed to the purchaser, so when it screws up, the purchaser can get lost.

Ain't consumer law just WONDERFUL? We can buy all sorts of hardware now with the functionality defined by its software/firmware.....and if the makers mess up the software for us after we've bought it, all those wonderful bells and whistles that we bought have probably added to its chances of failure. And the law gives us no protection whatsoever.

Jim Ford 6th July 2015 11:56 AM

Re: Business Economics
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by KeithL (Post 351180)
If the software fails,

Surely it's firmware.

Quote:

you have no redress; the shop hides behind the requirement of consumer law that the purchaser must be able to prove it's faulty. How do you prove the firmware is faulty?
I'm not a lawyer, but:

If you can demonstrate that the unit is nor working as advertised, you don't need to provide an underlying reason - all you have to show is that it just doesn't work properly.

The fact that the firmware may be supplied by a third party is irrelevant. If you buy a new car and a tyre is faulty it's up to the company selling you the car to rectify it - you don't need to go to (say) Dunlop.

Jim

KeithL 6th July 2015 12:12 PM

Re: Business Economics
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Ford (Post 351200)
Surely it's firmware.



I'm not a lawyer, but:

If you can demonstrate that the unit is nor working as advertised, you don't need to provide an underlying reason - all you have to show is that it just doesn't work properly.

The fact that the firmware may be supplied by a third party is irrelevant. If you buy a new car and a tyre is faulty it's up to the company selling you the car to rectify it - you don't need to go to (say) Dunlop.

Jim

Whether described as software or firmware, and I pursued this at the time with TSO, it is only licensed to the customer, so falls outside the provisions of consumer law! It's a good get-out. Doesn't matter whether it's third party or manufacturer written, if it's supplied under a licence, the same rule applies.

Naughty Nigel 6th July 2015 03:56 PM

Re: Business Economics
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuiko (Post 351064)
What does annoy me is when Tesco has a special offer on individual tins of sweetcorn (for example), which makes it cheaper to buy 4 separate tins than a pack of 4. :mad:

Good mental arithmetic (or the calculator on your phone) is essential when shopping. It is easy to be tricked into thinking that bigger packs or special offers provide better value for money, but that is often not the case.

At one time the retail industry was happy to take our weekly shopping budget - as long as we spent it on their products of course. But with the need for year upon year growth that is no longer good enough for them.

Consumers should be aware that the retail industry now wants money that we ether don't have, or weren't planning to spend; which is why we get so many special offers for products that we have just bought!

We recently had a special offer from Sainsbury's, where if we spent 20 on soap powder, toilet tissue, washing up liquid, kitchen rolls and so forth we would get 7 pence a litre off of Sainsbury's fuel.

We already had most of the above, but were short of dishwasher tablets and soap powder, so come our next visit we stocked up with 20 worth. Our son met us at the filling station with his car so we could use our full 100 litre fuel allowance!

However, when I paid I was presented with another voucher offering 7 pence off a litre if we spent 30 on soap powder, toilet tissue, washing up liquid, kitchen rolls and so forth! The offer was only valid for ten days.

It really does pay to do the maths when using any 'special offer'; both to make sure that the offer is worth having, and that it actually saves money!

Naughty Nigel 6th July 2015 04:00 PM

Re: Business Economics
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by KeithL (Post 351205)
Whether described as software or firmware, and I pursued this at the time with TSO, it is only licensed to the customer, so falls outside the provisions of consumer law! It's a good get-out. Doesn't matter whether it's third party or manufacturer written, if it's supplied under a licence, the same rule applies.

I doubt if a Judge would see it that way.

Irrespective of the letter of the Law, a County Court Judge would consider the 'reasonable expectations' of the consumer, having regard to the amount paid.

Having said that, the supplier (or manufacturer) would probably appeal at a higher court as there would be a lot at stake for them.

Jim Ford 6th July 2015 06:58 PM

Re: Business Economics
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by KeithL (Post 351205)
Whether described as software or firmware, and I pursued this at the time with TSO, it is only licensed to the customer, so falls outside the provisions of consumer law! It's a good get-out. Doesn't matter whether it's third party or manufacturer written, if it's supplied under a licence, the same rule applies.

Hmm. So what you're suggesting is that if a computer does not work at all because the third party supplied BIOS firmware is faulty, you have no case against the supplier of the computer?

Jim

Naughty Nigel 6th July 2015 07:04 PM

Re: Business Economics
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Ford (Post 351237)
Hmm. So what you're suggesting is that if a product (say a DVD recorder) doesn't work at all; if it's the fault of the firmware which was supplied by a third party, you have no case?

Jim

I suspect this could well fall foul of the Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977.

There is, after all, a reasonable expectation that a machine costing several hundred pounds will have a service life greater than the warranty period.

The warranty terms themselves are usually meaningless in Law, and almost impossible for manufacturers to enforce if it can be shown that they have acted unreasonably.

KeithL 7th July 2015 10:06 AM

Re: Business Economics
 
You'd think so, but just have a look at a Windows EULA for instance. The problem with e.g. DVD/HDD recorders is that the damn things are updated every so often. Each one that I've bought has worked perfectly when bought; it's only been after several updates that things started to go awry. Generally, software licences (for which read firmware licences too) don't guarantee anything; they just say that it'll work 'substantially as intended'; in the case of my DVD/HDD recorder, it still works; but when it decides to go into self test mode, it could be said to be working 'substantially as intended' even though it seriously impacts the effectiveness with which it records a programme.

As you say, a judge might well not see it that way; but who amongst us has the dosh to indulge in an expensive court case for the sake of a 300 DVD/HDD recorder?

And just consider another issue! What if the problem were due to EMI coming down the mains? How could the consumer prove that? You could argue that the unit should be resistant to EMI; but that 'resistance' is often only created in software, and (a) that method can be dodgy, (b) software can be corrupted due to EMI. The consumer could not possibly prove the case; a good EMI lab could, but that would cost a fortune. And, again, who amongst us has the dosh to indulge in costly lab tests for a 300 DVD/HDD recorder?

KeithL 7th July 2015 10:09 AM

Re: Business Economics
 
Commented on Nigel's post about 'special offers', Which magazine is running a campaign about them. It cited a case of "Special Offer - 2 for £4" on an item costing £2 per unit. And also, IIRC, a case of "Special Offer - 2 for £3" on an item that cost, I think it was £1.20 each. Reminds me of a billboard outside a pub: "Buy one and get a second for the same price!"


All times are GMT. The time now is 01:54 AM.


The Write Technology Ltd, 2007-2019, All rights reservedAd Management plugin by RedTyger