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Olympus announces midrange E-30 dSLR, plus new version of the 14-54mm lens

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  • #31
    Re: Olympus announces midrange E-30 dSLR, plus new version of the 14-54mm lens

    Originally posted by Ian View Post
    I'd be cautious about the value of the extra bit resolution. If the signal to noise ratio of the sensor isn't good enough, the extra bits will represent nothing useful.

    And I don't really understand the reference to 'rounding off' - if the tonality available is split into 4095 values per channel, what gets rounded off? The signal is not under-sampled. It's just that the sampling is not as fine as 14 bits. 12 bits already represents a massive colour range and most of us will be working in 8-bit environments eventually.

    Ian
    Disappointing to hear that Oly have no interest in 14-bit colour depth because the sensor can not differentiate signal from noise. Sounds like a major disadvantage of the smaller four-thirds sensor size. Less headroom in Photoshop before data is lost.

    I now regret buying into the E-system.

    Comment


    • #32
      Re: Olympus announces midrange E-30 dSLR, plus new version of the 14-54mm lens

      Originally posted by Invicta View Post
      Disappointing to hear that Oly have no interest in 14-bit colour depth because the sensor can not differentiate signal from noise. Sounds like a major disadvantage of the smaller four-thirds sensor size. Less headroom in Photoshop before data is lost.

      I now regret buying into the E-system.
      I too was dissappointed in Ian's response but still cannot believe that Olympus would ignore this. Nor do I think that the 4/3 sensors cannot achieve better colour depth. Some of the reason for better IQ on Cannon is for this reason. Pixels alone are not the answer. The more you have then the more important becomes colour depth.
      I will now answer your question Ian, when sampling a signal (light in this case) the image sensor has to give the level as a binary code. The more bits you have, the closer you will get to the actual value. Perhaps this explains what I meant by rounding off.

      Peter
      Best Regards

      PeterD

      www.imageinuk.com/

      Comment


      • #33
        Re: Olympus announces midrange E-30 dSLR, plus new version of the 14-54mm lens

        Originally posted by Invicta View Post
        Disappointing to hear that Oly have no interest in 14-bit colour depth because the sensor can not differentiate signal from noise. Sounds like a major disadvantage of the smaller four-thirds sensor size. Less headroom in Photoshop before data is lost.

        I now regret buying into the E-system.
        Look at your pictures, not just technical specs.

        Remember the debate about bit sampling in the early days of digital hifi?

        I don't speak for Olympus - I'm just saying that I haven't seen ANY dramatic benefit in over-sampling in DSLRs, regardless of brand.

        Ian
        Founder and editor of:
        Olympus UK E-System User Group (http://e-group.uk.net)
        Four Thirds User (http://fourthirds-user.com)
        Digital Photography Now (http://dpnow.com)
        Olympus camera, lens, and accessory hire (http://e-group.uk.net/hire)

        Twitter: www.twitter.com/ian_burley
        Flickr: www.flickr.com/photos/dpnow/
        Pinterest: www.pinterest.com/ianburley/
        NEW: My personal BLOG ianburley.com
        sigpic

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        • #34
          Re: Olympus announces midrange E-30 dSLR, plus new version of the 14-54mm lens

          Originally posted by PeterD View Post
          I too was dissappointed in Ian's response but still cannot believe that Olympus would ignore this. Nor do I think that the 4/3 sensors cannot achieve better colour depth. Some of the reason for better IQ on Cannon is for this reason. Pixels alone are not the answer. The more you have then the more important becomes colour depth.
          I will now answer your question Ian, when sampling a signal (light in this case) the image sensor has to give the level as a binary code. The more bits you have, the closer you will get to the actual value. Perhaps this explains what I meant by rounding off.

          Peter
          Well, the difference between 12 and 14 bit sampling is, in my view, of marginal value. I don't see any magical improvement in Canon colour whether 12 or 14-bit sampled. It's a good tool for marketing, though.

          I'd say it's not BAD to have 14-bit sampling, but it will actually require more CPU power to process.

          We end up viewing most of what we photograph in some kind of 8-bit colour space anyway.

          Has there been any debate about deficient colour from E-System cameras? What about the 'legendary' E-1 colour? - that was not a 14-bit pipeline.

          Ian
          Founder and editor of:
          Olympus UK E-System User Group (http://e-group.uk.net)
          Four Thirds User (http://fourthirds-user.com)
          Digital Photography Now (http://dpnow.com)
          Olympus camera, lens, and accessory hire (http://e-group.uk.net/hire)

          Twitter: www.twitter.com/ian_burley
          Flickr: www.flickr.com/photos/dpnow/
          Pinterest: www.pinterest.com/ianburley/
          NEW: My personal BLOG ianburley.com
          sigpic

          Comment


          • #35
            Re: Olympus announces midrange E-30 dSLR, plus new version of the 14-54mm lens

            Originally posted by Ian View Post
            Look at your pictures, not just technical specs.

            Remember the debate about bit sampling in the early days of digital hifi?

            I don't speak for Olympus - I'm just saying that I haven't seen ANY dramatic benefit in over-sampling in DSLRs, regardless of brand.

            Ian
            The difference will not be dramatic as we are talking about the least significant bits. However, 14-bit will give you much smoother histograms when you start applying changes: no gaps or spikes where information is lost.

            I want to buy into a camera system that I can develop into and improve with. However, after reading Miquel Angel Garcia, Olympus European marketing MD's comments and seeing the E-30 specs I get the impression Oly is only interested in the high-volume consumer market.
            Last edited by Invicta; 4th November 2008, 05:52 PM. Reason: spelling

            Comment


            • #36
              Re: Olympus announces midrange E-30 dSLR, plus new version of the 14-54mm lens

              Originally posted by Invicta View Post
              The difference will not be dramatic as we are talking about the least significant bits. However, 14-bit will give you much smoother histograms when you start applying changes: no gaps or spikes where information is lost.

              I want to buy into a camera system that I can develop into and improve with. However, after reading Miquel Angel Garcia, Olympus European marketing MD's comments and seeing the E-30 specs I get the impression Oly is only interested in the high-volume consumer market.

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: Olympus announces midrange E-30 dSLR, plus new version of the 14-54mm lens

                In the current world of currency market turmoil I wouldn't be announcing any possible price that I might have to increase on actual launch - so all prices are likely to contain a significant margin on the actual launch price.

                Secondly I would like to continue to sell E3 and E520s over the next 2-3 months - and the indicated E30 price would seem to support that objective (from the comments here and elsewhere) nicely.

                Finally the real issue with the E30 will be the IQ from the package both for the success of the model and as an indicator of how far things have moved on from the X20 range - and might do in another incarnation.
                E, Pen and OM-D bodies
                43 m43 and legacy glass
                loads of flashes and accessories from all the systems

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                • #38
                  Re: Olympus announces midrange E-30 dSLR, plus new version of the 14-54mm lens

                  Originally posted by Makonde View Post
                  The cnet piece appears to have been pulled, but a synopsis is echoing round the internet...

                  Meanwhile, you all do make me chuckle! Always going on about how your own Oly is good enough for you, but a new model appears and there are more posts per minute in these forums than on any other subject LOL.

                  Some may not want 'arty' effects like pinhole camera on what is to be Oly's no.2 machine for a while (and I would be among them - O Lord, is this what Oly's European marketing director meant by 'having photoshop like facilities in the camera?).

                  But beyond that it seems that the E30 represents a technical step up from the E520 both with sensor (vital) and AF (important). We shall see about ISO (important).

                  I'm not attracted by it, but then I've lately bought the E520. I'm sure the street price will be lower than the price announced (and the E520 street price should drop too - a real bargain!).

                  What the price point and reported features mean to me is that to maintain the difference, Oly will shortly (this time next year?) have to bring up a successor to the E3 that has at least 12 MP, better ISO, and more besides. And that's what I'm waiting for, so I'm encouraged!

                  I just hope that doesn't also have an 'arty grain' facility....

                  I also hope there will be a high-end micro 4/3 that concentrates on quality rather than questionable 'features'
                  I thought that already came as standard with all Oly cameras at high ISO?
                  John

                  "A hundredth of a second here, a hundredth of a second there � even if you put them end to end, they still only add up to one, two, perhaps three seconds, snatched from eternity." ~ Robert Doisneau

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: Olympus announces midrange E-30 dSLR, plus new version of the 14-54mm lens

                    Just came across this link for the E30.

                    http://www.electronista.com/articles.../olympus.e.30/

                    It has an electronic level to make it easier to take Landscapes photos, 12 Megapixels and a few other things borrowed from the E3, is it going to be worth the money? not sure if it will be,
                    Gareth Lovering
                    I have over 14,000 photos and videos on line at

                    http://www.facebook.com/Garethloveringphotography

                    http://www.flickr.com/photos/swansealocalboy/

                    http://www.youtube.com/user/garylovering/

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: Olympus announces midrange E-30 dSLR, plus new version of the 14-54mm lens

                      Hmmm, it seems we instinctively rip into Amateur Photographer every time they give a less than glowing review of an Olympus camera yet we are the brand's biggest critics! We even trash a new model before it is officially announced!

                      Let's summarise:-

                      The sensor's are next to useless with pitiful resolution and woeful dynamic range.

                      The legendary Oly colour is all an illusion that pales into insignificance when compared to Canon.

                      The new model is packed with meaningless gimmicks aimed only at increasing mass market share (yet it is far too expensive to sell any at all). Canon would never do that, would they?

                      Oly have lost their grip and the E30 is yet another mistake.

                      If Oly can't manage 14 bits their cameras are not worth buying.

                      The smaller Four Thirds sensor is a major disadvantage.

                      Oly is percieved as concentrating on questionable features rather than improvements in quality.

                      Good grief, if Angela or Barney at AP had said all that some of you would be calling for them to be lynched!

                      I must admit I hadn't realised my cameras were so bad, but then I'm a bit of a novice at photoshop so my mediocre pictures probably wouldn't improve with one of the far superior Canons or Nikons anyway!

                      One good thing stands out from all this; at least we Oly owners have far more legitimate excuses for our cr*p pictures than the poor old Canikon owners!
                      John

                      "A hundredth of a second here, a hundredth of a second there � even if you put them end to end, they still only add up to one, two, perhaps three seconds, snatched from eternity." ~ Robert Doisneau

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: Olympus announces midrange E-30 dSLR, plus new version of the 14-54mm lens

                        Originally posted by Zuiko View Post
                        Hmmm, it seems we instinctively rip into Amateur Photographer every time they give a less than glowing review of an Olympus camera yet we are the brand's biggest critics! We even trash a new model before it is officially announced!

                        Let's summarise:-

                        The sensor's are next to useless with pitiful resolution and woeful dynamic range.

                        The legendary Oly colour is all an illusion that pales into insignificance when compared to Canon.

                        The new model is packed with meaningless gimmicks aimed only at increasing mass market share (yet it is far too expensive to sell any at all). Canon would never do that, would they?

                        Oly have lost their grip and the E30 is yet another mistake.

                        If Oly can't manage 14 bits their cameras are not worth buying.

                        The smaller Four Thirds sensor is a major disadvantage.

                        Oly is percieved as concentrating on questionable features rather than improvements in quality.

                        Good grief, if Angela or Barney at AP had said all that some of you would be calling for them to be lynched!

                        I must admit I hadn't realised my cameras were so bad, but then I'm a bit of a novice at photoshop so my mediocre pictures probably wouldn't improve with one of the far superior Canons or Nikons anyway!

                        One good thing stands out from all this; at least we Oly owners have far more legitimate excuses for our cr*p pictures than the poor old Canikon owners!
                        John,

                        Just to put the record straight as far as my comments are concerned.

                        1. In my first post I said:- "I think Oly have got this about right except perhaps the price."

                        2. Also in my first post I said:- "One of the interesting things for me though is in the comparison table. I have been banging on for some time about a need to have more dynamic range in lightness levels and find that the Canon example is using 14bit colour depth whereas all the others are on the standard 12bit colour depth.
                        I think this would have a far greater impact than the continual drive for more pixels - How about it Oly?
                        I appreciate that this would not make much difference to most users but I think its essential for wildlife shooting where subtle colour/shade differences are experienced and wide differences in lightness levels can make a vast difference in the final result if the camera can reproduce them." This was a general comment but NOT a critism of the E30.

                        3. The later comments were in response to comments made by others. As far as the Canon results are concerned, I have seen very good wildlife shots from all makes of cameras but I have noticed in some images a slight edge with the Canon where subtle changes in colour shades can be seen. This may well be due to the IQ of the lens but I think it also has a lot to do with colour depth too.

                        4. My comments regarding colour depth was meant as an encouragement for future development. After-all, Oly says it welcomes comments from its user base to consider for future models.

                        5. One thing that Canon have not got - and I treasure most of all - is in-body IS. This has been particularly well thought through as it is compatable with any lens that you attach to the camera, whatever the make.

                        I hope this helps to clear up my contribution to this debate.

                        Peter
                        Best Regards

                        PeterD

                        www.imageinuk.com/

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: Olympus announces midrange E-30 dSLR, plus new version of the 14-54mm lens

                          Originally posted by PeterD View Post
                          John,

                          Just to put the record straight as far as my comments are concerned.

                          1. In my first post I said:- "I think Oly have got this about right except perhaps the price."

                          2. Also in my first post I said:- "One of the interesting things for me though is in the comparison table. I have been banging on for some time about a need to have more dynamic range in lightness levels and find that the Canon example is using 14bit colour depth whereas all the others are on the standard 12bit colour depth.
                          I think this would have a far greater impact than the continual drive for more pixels - How about it Oly?
                          I appreciate that this would not make much difference to most users but I think its essential for wildlife shooting where subtle colour/shade differences are experienced and wide differences in lightness levels can make a vast difference in the final result if the camera can reproduce them." This was a general comment but NOT a critism of the E30.

                          3. The later comments were in response to comments made by others. As far as the Canon results are concerned, I have seen very good wildlife shots from all makes of cameras but I have noticed in some images a slight edge with the Canon where subtle changes in colour shades can be seen. This may well be due to the IQ of the lens but I think it also has a lot to do with colour depth too.

                          4. My comments regarding colour depth was meant as an encouragement for future development. After-all, Oly says it welcomes comments from its user base to consider for future models.

                          5. One thing that Canon have not got - and I treasure most of all - is in-body IS. This has been particularly well thought through as it is compatable with any lens that you attach to the camera, whatever the make.

                          I hope this helps to clear up my contribution to this debate.

                          Peter
                          Hi Peter,

                          Thanks for the clarification, although it was by no means your comments alone that prompted my response - I noted that the whole tone of the thread appeared somewhat negative towards the new model and even the E-System in general! My post was intended to help put it all in perspective - I am concious that we collectively at times become hyper-critical of Oly precisely because we care. But nevertheless I do feel that sometimes we get it a little out of proportion and momentarily forget the many advantages that our brand has to offer. I am sure that some of the comments posted in this thread, were they to come from another brand user or, worse, magazine editorial staff, would have met with a strong and robust defence from members of this forum!

                          Cheers,
                          John

                          "A hundredth of a second here, a hundredth of a second there � even if you put them end to end, they still only add up to one, two, perhaps three seconds, snatched from eternity." ~ Robert Doisneau

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: Olympus announces midrange E-30 dSLR, plus new version of the 14-54mm lens

                            Well I think the new E30 looks very exciting and looking at the specs compaired to the Canon and Nikon I think it has lots going for it.

                            I look forward to having a play and seeing some images from it at the Photo Imaging show next year.

                            Ok price looks to be an issue, but as it has not hit the streets yet we will have to wait and see.
                            You cant make a great musician or a great photographer if the magic isnt there. ~ Eve Arnold

                            Kit: Olympus OM4, OMD E5 MkII And some other junk to make it all work.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Re: Olympus announces midrange E-30 dSLR, plus new version of the 14-54mm lens

                              Originally posted by Ian View Post
                              Look at your pictures, not just technical specs.

                              Remember the debate about bit sampling in the early days of digital hifi?

                              I don't speak for Olympus - I'm just saying that I haven't seen ANY dramatic benefit in over-sampling in DSLRs, regardless of brand.

                              Ian
                              Yes, and I still think my analogue record deck sounds better than my CD player...
                              Hugh of Bardfield
                              Essex, UK
                              http://www.flickr.com/photos/hughofbardfield/
                              http://hughweller-lewisphotography.blogspot.com/

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Re: Olympus announces midrange E-30 dSLR, plus new version of the 14-54mm lens

                                Originally posted by HughofBardfield View Post
                                Yes, and I still think my analogue record deck sounds better than my CD player...

                                regardless of the merits of your deck Hugh, there have been a large number of 'proofs' suggesting that at the current sensor performance levels there is no practical output advantage in 14 over 12 bits with 1 exception noted - the D3.

                                If I can ever find the links to these I will post them to another thread dedicated to the subject.

                                back to the E30 - what does the panel think of these 2 features that I haven't seen commented on anywhere in forums or reviews...............

                                1. adjustable PDAF points - all 11 can be fine tuned in camera by up 20 data points
                                2. you can adjust your overall metering preference by up to 1EV in 1/6th steps
                                E, Pen and OM-D bodies
                                43 m43 and legacy glass
                                loads of flashes and accessories from all the systems

                                Comment

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