Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

[Jax]

Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

We get a 'referendum' on the government at least every 4 years - it's called a General Election' and is considered to be democratic!

Jim

Subtle difference there. A referendum is usually a vote on a particular issue. The General Election gives you the chance to vote on which group you prefer to mess things up for another 4 years.

Jax

[TimP]

Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

We get a 'referendum' on the government at least every 4 years - it's called a General Election' and is considered to be democratic!

Jim

[Keith-369]

Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

Subtle difference there. A referendum is usually a vote on a particular issue. The General Election gives you the chance to vote on which group you prefer to mess things up for another 4 years.

Jax

A general election is usually a vote where people choose which party they think will mess things up the least, not which party they prefer ...... for any reason.

Another reason why turnouts are so low, no one wants to vote for any of the self preserving bunch of leeching ........

[Jax]

Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

Rebecca! He’s doing it again! (You know, that repeating stuff that he does)

Just joshing with you Jim!

I would imagine even Rebecca has come to realise it's a hopeless task trying to teach an old dog new tricks.

In fairness to Jim, considering this thread has run since last Feb. and the number of posts he's made on the topic, Jim, like many others, must find it very difficult finding anything new to say.

Jax

[TimP]

Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

What’s needed is a properly coordinated tactical voting organisation that can advise voters of the best way to mess up whichever party they don’t like. You’d at least be able to vote out who you didn’t want to get in.

[Otto]

Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

I just had a quick look at his first link. The first three points he makes in this section are just not true.

He claims the EU only makes 13% of our laws but if you follow through to the deeper analysis on FullFact its actually between 13% and 65% depending on how its measured.

Depends on what you define as "law". Here's what parliament.uk has to say
https://researchbriefings.parliament...ummary/SN07092

He claims the EU don't force their will on member countries what ?
ask Greece, ask Cypress ask Ireland. I could go on, how many referendums did they force on them? Italy can't even pass its own budget this year.

Greece had a debt crisis largely of its own making. The EU and the IMF proposed a rescue package which required Greece to follow some rules as you would expect. If rescuing a country from sovereign default is "forcing your will on [that] country" then so be it. Averting a possible economic catastrophe seems like a reasonable action to me. In the case of Ireland I believe a second referendum was held following some changes to the constitution following the first, and was not "imposed" by the EU.

He claims the EU laws are not made by unelected bureaucrats but they actually are. The bureaucrats are not elected by the public, and can not be removed by them either.

The same is true for our civil service. Parliament decides on legislation and the (unelected) civil service enacts it. EU legislation is debated by the (elected) EU parliament and (elected) national governments via the European Council.

I will stop at that. All he is doing is trying to protect his gravy train of a job and his gold plated pension.

Probably find that the EU funds his website on expenses as well.

O dear. What he is doing is explaining how the EU operates and clarifying some misunderstandings. Just dismissing that on the grounds that he's "protecting his gravy train of a job" is hardly a convincing argument.

[Jax]

Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

What's needed is a different system. We need a group of independent cross party industry leaders, commercial and financial experts from all parts of the UK who have the power to advise and more importantly veto Parliament. They could hopefully replace the House Of Lords

The problem would be finding examples who were honest, impartial and ethical.

Jax

[wornish]

Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

What's needed is a different system. We need a group of independent cross party industry leaders, commercial and financial experts from all parts of the UK who have the power to advise and more importantly veto Parliament. They could hopefully replace the House Of Lords

The problem would be finding examples who were honest, impartial and ethical.

Jax

Great idea, but your last para sums up the challenge. Good luck in finding impartial, ethical business, commercial and financial experts who are not corruptible.

Any job with that amount of power will be corrupted - basic rule of life. - In my experience.

Unfortunately angels only exist in fairy stories...., oh and amongst US venture capitalists.

[pdk42]

Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

Depends on what you define as "law". Here's what parliament.uk has to say
https://researchbriefings.parliament...ummary/SN07092

Greece had a debt crisis largely of its own making. The EU and the IMF proposed a rescue package which required Greece to follow some rules as you would expect. If rescuing a country from sovereign default is "forcing your will on [that] country" then so be it. Averting a possible economic catastrophe seems like a reasonable action to me. In the case of Ireland I believe a second referendum was held following some changes to the constitution following the first, and was not "imposed" by the EU.

The same is true for our civil service. Parliament decides on legislation and the (unelected) civil service enacts it. EU legislation is debated by the (elected) EU parliament and (elected) national governments via the European Council.

O dear. What he is doing is explaining how the EU operates and clarifying some misunderstandings. Just dismissing that on the grounds that he's "protecting his gravy train of a job" is hardly a convincing argument.

It's no good Richard. The Brexit mindset has been forged by lies from the usual media outlets for the past 10 years or more. Coming up with reasonable, evidence-based arguments will not beat the ingrained delusions that so many hold. Best let them have their Brexit and just hope that we collectively return to our senses in as short as time as possible for the sake of our children's futures.

[Otto]

Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

That's true Paul, I know it's a hiding to nothing, but we shouldn't give up trying to avoid this car crash. I'm just glad I don't have any kids!

[pdk42]

Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

As a fervent remainer, I'm backing TM's deal. Here's why:

- Our negotiating position with the EU was never going to be strong and anyone who thought we could carry on in the single market with all its benefits once we left can only be described as delusional. An exit deal that the EU would accept and that would meet the demands of JRM and his cronies was never a realistic possibility.

- JRM might now say we should leave with no-deal, but anyone who understands the issues knows that leaving with no deal will be very, very hard on us economically in the short to medium term. Unless you're a complete ideologue then no deal is a really, really bad idea.

- The deal on the table may not be perfect, but it's a deal that won't hurt us too badly economically and we can build on it from there. Maybe that will lead to further distancing from the EU in time, or maybe we'll move closer together again. Who knows what the country will think in 5-10 years. I think we need to follow through on the 2016 result so that we can live with our decision and see how it feels.

But as a remainer don't I want another referendum? Well, it's an appealing prospect, but it's very risky:

- It's by no means sure the political situation will allow it to happen. We could end up crashing out with no deal first and that would be a real disaster.

- The result is by no means sure. We're still a divided nation.

- A vote to remain would be very hard to take politically - I can see it causing even more division in our society than there is now.

So, as I said, I'm backing TM's deal. On a personal level I wouldn't wish on anyone the pressure she must have been under. Sure she's made mistakes (2017 election and agreeing to the NI backstop being pretty high on the list), but as others have pointed out, her resilience and dedication has been exemplary. Boris, DD, Raab etc all had the luxury of principled resignation and the platform to then snipe from the sidelines. If she'd done that we'd have been in even more merde than we are now.

If there's one villain of the piece, that I'd gladly punch in the nose, then it would be Cameron.

[Ricoh]

Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

Is David Cameron 100% at blame, I think not. The commons voted by 544 to 53 to proceed with the referendum. Was it a bad move, yes.

I wonder if anyone in government has considered asking the Republic of Ireland to leave with us. It would unlock the backstop issue and free up negotiations.

A second referendum would seem the sensible way forward, but to do so could let the genie out of the bottle. Overturning the original vote could disenfranchise half the population and could quite possibly lead to a rise in political popularism. Polititions recognise this so I don't think a second referendum will happen for a long time to come.

[TimP]

Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

They ought to drag “Dave” back by the scruff of the neck and make him face the press like TM did last night. He was the architect of all this, starting with his promise (manifesto?) to give the British people a vote on the EU. He turned tail and ran when it all went the opposite way to expected. Typical modern lightweight politician.
Right now there’s literally no-one capable of sorting out this mess without the backing of all the other politicians, there’s no great statesman waiting in the wings.

[Zuiko]

Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

Is David Cameron 100% at blame, I think not. The commons voted by 544 to 53 to proceed with the referendum. Was it a bad move, yes.

I wonder if anyone in government has considered asking the Republic of Ireland to leave with us. It would unlock the backstop issue and free up negotiations.

A second referendum would seem the sensible way forward, but to do so could let the genie out of the bottle. Overturning the original vote could disenfranchise half the population and could quite possibly lead to a rise in political popularism. Polititions recognise this so I don't think a second referendum will happen for a long time to come.

I have full confidence in our politicians to achieve one thing and one thing only, to fudge the issue. The deal currently on offer goes some way towards making this possible and I'm sure that with some minor tweaks it could become a complete and utter fudge, with the appearance that we have left the EU without actually having done so in practice.

[wornish]

Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

As Ricoh said ": The commons voted by 544 to 53 to proceed with the referendum"

Many MP's choose to selectively forget this, and it's worth repeating over and over again.

Both sides of the subsequent arguments were faulty but the public decided.

Blaming it on any one individual is wrong.

We should just now leave without an agreement and make a new start as a country, yes it will be bumpy but worth it in the end.