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Anyone know anything about Scots Land Law?

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  • Anyone know anything about Scots Land Law?

    I'm trying to get to grips with some deeds ('dispositions') of land in Scotland.

    Amongst the feudal gibberish, I keep encountering statements like:

    "... on 15th both days of April 1974"

    Now my recollection of 1974 is pretty hazy, but I'm fairly confident that it only had one date 15th April!

    Anyone have a clue as to what the above might mean?

    Jim

  • #2
    Re: Anyone know anything about Scots Land Law?

    Does it actually mean the 15th April Jim, or might it be a 15th occurrence in April?
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    Naughty Nigel


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    • #3
      Re: Anyone know anything about Scots Land Law?

      Probably had a dram too many or, more than likely, used gibberish to draw in business because when things are short and simple, the legal leech can't suck blood money.

      On a more serious note, I would suspect that your issue, has to do with Feudal Law and Feu duties etc. You own property but not the land. but pay for the priviledge - as a vassal - for the use of. The land belongs to someone else. I believe this law was changed around the 70's. It only came to light as my father was purchasing s property in Glasgow and an option to buy the land ouright, came to light, and had to use a solicitor to sort it out.

      It is possible, that given Joe Publics ignorance when it comes to intricate law, it might have been overlooked, especially if deeds etc., were signed prior to the change in law.

      As far as I know, this legal scenario dosen't occur south of the border.
      It's not what inspires us that is important, it's where the journey takes us.

      Wally and his Collie with our Oly bits & bobs

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      • #4
        Re: Anyone know anything about Scots Land Law?

        Originally posted by Jim Ford View Post
        I'm trying to get to grips with some deeds ('dispositions') of land in Scotland.

        Amongst the feudal gibberish, I keep encountering statements like:

        "... on 15th both days of April 1974"

        Now my recollection of 1974 is pretty hazy, but I'm fairly confident that it only had one date 15th April!

        Anyone have a clue as to what the above might mean?

        Jim
        I've asked my wife about this. She is a retired solicitor with experience in Scots conveyancing Law, and is not sure what this means, but would have to read it in context.
        Stewart

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        • #5
          Re: Anyone know anything about Scots Land Law?

          Thanks for the replies.

          Taking another line from the disposition:

          ".... recorded in the said Division of the General Register of Sasines applicable to the County of Bute on 31st both days of October 1929 ...."

          I think this was in the days when property changed hands in Scotland for a few goats, a length of plaid and a broadsword!

          My daughter's an experienced solicitor in English Law, but is trying to keep this at arms length!

          Jim

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          • #6
            Re: Anyone know anything about Scots Land Law?

            Originally posted by Jim Ford View Post
            Thanks for the replies.

            Taking another line from the disposition:

            ".... recorded in the said Division of the General Register of Sasines applicable to the County of Bute on 31st both days of October 1929 ...."

            I think this was in the days when property changed hands in Scotland for a few goats, a length of plaid and a broadsword!

            My daughter's an experienced solicitor in English Law, but is trying to keep this at arms length!

            Jim
            Hmmm. Interesting. These are not the Scots 'Quarter' days, so I wonder if the word 'both' has a different meaning in Scots law, just as we use the term 'Jointly and Severally' in English law?

            I also wonder if there are two definitions of 'day', perhaps using two calendars, so the term 'both days' is applied to avoid any loopholes.
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            Naughty Nigel


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            • #7
              Re: Anyone know anything about Scots Land Law?

              This might be worth a Googling as quite recently, within the last few months. The question was raised in the Scottish Parliament about who actually owns the land in Sctland. The gist of the qustion, was that over 50% is apparently still owned by just a few individuals.

              Edit: Here's a link to a Scotsman Newspaper article on the subject http://www.scotsman.com/news/politic...land-1-4573188
              It's not what inspires us that is important, it's where the journey takes us.

              Wally and his Collie with our Oly bits & bobs

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              • #8
                Re: Anyone know anything about Scots Land Law?

                As one currently buying a property in Scotland, I was given a copy of the Guide to Scottish Standard Clauses
                http://www.barnettslaw.co.uk/pdf/cli...rd_clauses.pdf

                Usage in that is along the lines of :-
                "This is the style of Offer specified in the Deed of Declaration by Ross Alexander MacKay dated 14 and registered in the Books of Council and Session on 15 both days of March 2016."

                In this instance, clearly two days are named, the 14th and 15th. In a roundabout legal manner. So maybe earlier in your gibberish there's another date specified, which with the 15th equals "both days" ?
                Margaret

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                • #9
                  Re: Anyone know anything about Scots Land Law?

                  Originally posted by MargaretR View Post
                  As one currently buying a property in Scotland, I was given a copy of the Guide to Scottish Standard Clauses
                  http://www.barnettslaw.co.uk/pdf/cli...rd_clauses.pdf

                  Usage in that is along the lines of :-
                  "This is the style of Offer specified in the Deed of Declaration by Ross Alexander MacKay dated 14 and registered in the Books of Council and Session on 15 both days of March 2016."

                  In this instance, clearly two days are named, the 14th and 15th. In a roundabout legal manner. So maybe earlier in your gibberish there's another date specified, which with the 15th equals "both days" ?
                  Sounds like poorly constructed English to me. A comma or three wouldn't go amiss! As in: "dated 14, and registered in the Books of Council, and Session on 15, both days of March 2016."

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                  • #10
                    Re: Anyone know anything about Scots Land Law?

                    The thing about these feudal documents (I believe it's changed now) is that they are so dense with archaic and obsolete words, that it would have been impossible for the people signing them to have understood what they were signing for!

                    Here's a beauty: 'effeiring' - from 'effier' meaning 'to suit or be appropriate for'. How many times have you come across that one?

                    Jim

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                    • #11
                      Re: Anyone know anything about Scots Land Law?

                      Originally posted by KeithL View Post
                      Sounds like poorly constructed English to me. A comma or three wouldn't go amiss! As in: "dated 14, and registered in the Books of Council, and Session on 15, both days of March 2016."
                      The non use of punctuation in contracts used to be the norm.

                      During my career with Marconi when I moved from an engineering role to sales and marketing I had to go on a company commercial procedures course a lot of which concerned contract terms and conditions etc. It was explained on that course that punctuation was left out partly to avoid adverse outcomes in any contract disputes due to the punctuation being wrong and allowing the wrong interpretation of a clause and numerous examples of classic cases where incorrect contract writing had cost companies dearly were quoted. Also English Law (and I imagine Scots Law) relies heavily on Legal Precident ie. the judgement in previous similar cases which is the reason that lawyers have vast libraries of previous cases. The commercial manager of my division with whom I worked on a number of multi million pound contracts and contract negotiations was in fact a qualified barrister, such was the importance of trying to get a "watertight" contract. Marconi's considered that it was preferable to rely on arguing your case, if it came to it on the basis of the context and intent of the contract and legal precedent was preferable to losing at the first hurdle because of a mistake in punctuation.

                      Looking at recent information on the internet on the subject it seems that more recently it has become more common to include punctuation in contracts. However, looking at a number of contract law sites and blogs it seems that there are now an awful lot of cases where bad punctuation has led to entirely wrong interpretation of the intent of a contract being upheld by a judge to the detriment of the contractor.

                      Of course being cynical we can see that which ever way you do it the lawyers always benefit.
                      Peter

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                      • #12
                        Re: Anyone know anything about Scots Land Law?

                        Originally posted by PeterBirder View Post
                        Of course being cynical we can see that which ever way you do it the lawyers always benefit.
                        They always do!
                        ---------------

                        Naughty Nigel


                        Difficult is worth doing

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                        • #13
                          Re: Anyone know anything about Scots Land Law?

                          If you haven't already found it, this link might prove useful? http://www.scottishlaw.org.uk/lawsco...tslawland.html

                          It provides modern English explanations to the 17 / 18th century archaic terminology used.
                          It's not what inspires us that is important, it's where the journey takes us.

                          Wally and his Collie with our Oly bits & bobs

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                          • #14
                            Re: Anyone know anything about Scots Land Law?

                            Originally posted by Wally View Post
                            If you haven't already found it, this link might prove useful? http://www.scottishlaw.org.uk/lawsco...tslawland.html

                            It provides modern English explanations to the 17 / 18th century archaic terminology used.
                            KeithL
                            It is not poorly constructed English it is Scottish!


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                            • #15
                              Re: Anyone know anything about Scots Land Law?

                              Originally posted by Wally View Post
                              If you haven't already found it, this link might prove useful? http://www.scottishlaw.org.uk/lawsco...tslawland.html

                              It provides modern English explanations to the 17 / 18th century archaic terminology used.
                              Thanks a lot 'Wally' it's very helpful.

                              jim

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