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  • "shopping in" and "cloning out" ?

    Ok opinions please. keep it nice

    Some of us like "shopping in" objects to create an image and most of us would "clone out" an object or area of an image, to improve the composition.

    This debate has started in StephenL "Ribblehead Viaduct" thread with some magnificent images.

    one I "shopped in" is






    the image of the newly weds, I took at the bottom of HMS Warrior as they were leaving for their Honeymoon after being married on Warrior and enjoying their Wedding Supper and dancing late int the night


    This image I "shopped" to make their 1st Anniversary wedding card - one of the wedding images was of them with the tower but no moon and stars and a very VERY dear friend Vance let me use his image in "swhopping" to create this - he being Ex Navy (Vance) and the bride being the CEO of the RYA

    Right or wrong ? comment please


    another example






    I wanted a sunrise or sunset by the old Smugglers Cottages for a project - got up at 3 am and off to Langstone Harbour I went ... only there was no sunrise view where I wanted it ! so I made one and "glowed" the cottages in a bath of peach light !

    right or wrong? comments please
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    [I].
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    I Lurve Walking in our Glorious Countryside; Photography;
    Riding Ducati Motorbikes; Reading & Cooking ! ...


    http://www.flickr.com/photos/photomagicf1_chevvy/sets/

    the ONE photo album

  • #2
    Re: "shopping in" and "cloning out" ?

    I would add, that I too captured some images of the Ribblehead Viaduct, which I feel would be "more complete" with a Steam Locomotive "shopped in" ??? Now should I ?
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    [I].
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    I Lurve Walking in our Glorious Countryside; Photography;
    Riding Ducati Motorbikes; Reading & Cooking ! ...


    http://www.flickr.com/photos/photomagicf1_chevvy/sets/

    the ONE photo album

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    • #3
      Re: "shopping in" and "cloning out" ?

      My opinion is that it is dishonest to photoshop something in which wasn't there when the photo was taken. For example, if you normally see a Robin on a particular branch, but on the day you wanted to photograph the branch, perhaps it was covered in snow, there wasn't a bird to be seen, would you photoshop a picture you took previously of a Robin?

      People would argue that artists have been doing this sort of thing ever since paint was invented, and they have. But in my mind artists and photographers differ. Photographers have a duty to show images as they are, or as they think they are. This permits colour changes, etc. Extreme purists would say that you shouldn't even clone-out litter and the like. Personally I wouldn't go as far as to say that.

      But it's a personal thing. Me, I'm a photographer not a graphic artist. But please, don't suggest I'm wrong and you're right. There is no wrong and right. Just personal feelings.
      Stephen

      A camera takes a picture. A photographer makes a picture

      Fuji X system, + Leica and Bronica film

      My Flickr site

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      • #4
        Re: "shopping in" and "cloning out" ?

        Hi Stephen, you are correct, its personal choice there is no right nor wrong.

        If the branch was covered in snow I would photograph it, and if the Robin failed to "sit" that day ... and later I wanted an image of a Robin on a snow covered branch I would "shop" it

        but that is because I file lots of "stock shots" for back drop or Gif images to be created as I play with "creating images" on the PC without the camera - Tom photofx on here does too and Mark down under it is our extended creative juices running ...
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        [I].
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        I Lurve Walking in our Glorious Countryside; Photography;
        Riding Ducati Motorbikes; Reading & Cooking ! ...


        http://www.flickr.com/photos/photomagicf1_chevvy/sets/

        the ONE photo album

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: "shopping in" and "cloning out" ?

          Personally I don't care. Photographers have been 'flopping in' better skies in the darkroom since the 1850's. Photoshop just makes it easier. Has anybody ever claimed that hand tinted photos were not photographic. As long as we are not talking about documentary photography then anything goes. I still reserve the right to say that looks cr*p. BTW was Velvia a good representation of what was there?
          The bottom line is everyone to their own and if it looks good then what's the harm.
          I gave up photography and started drawing and painting (badly) for a few years in the 80s because I got fed up with telegraph poles etc. now I can get rid of them if I wish. Mostly I don't.
          Enjoy yourself, learn to do things to the best of your ability and do it for yourself.
          Oh and Chevy, I don't think the first one works but the second one looks right, but the couple probably loved the moon and stars so what do I know!
          Jim
          www.jim-mccabe.co.uk
          http://www.jimmccabephotography.blogspot.com
          (My Travels in Aus & NZ)

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: "shopping in" and "cloning out" ?

            Jim, I too have recently got back in the "groove of pencils/sketching and painting" and Nicks mother used to "colour in" photographs back in the 1940's it was her job

            I agree, documentary MUST NOT BE SHOPPED as it is reporting on FACTS - nor Evidence tampering

            my Smugglers Cottages at Sunrise - was almost true - the sunrise was around the other side of the pub view - so I moved it a few hundred yards as the cottages with an open window looked the part

            the couple, loved it and their families too and it pleased them lots - they also loved the one of them at the bottom of Warrior gangplank with just the Spinnaker Tower behind them ... but it was "dull" the moon and stars makes it more romantic I thought but its not "worked right" at their feet ... but it was a few minutes of fun for me and them all - we smiled and thats worth a fortune these days
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            [I].
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            I Lurve Walking in our Glorious Countryside; Photography;
            Riding Ducati Motorbikes; Reading & Cooking ! ...


            http://www.flickr.com/photos/photomagicf1_chevvy/sets/

            the ONE photo album

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: "shopping in" and "cloning out" ?

              Hi everyone!

              I often clone out unwanted clutter from images in order to allow the viewer to focus on what I intended the focal point to be. I don't tend to add things to images, but this is as much due to the inability to make it look right as it is anything else. I also love taking images in IR, which whilst it gives a true representation of how things are in that spectrum of light, is nothing like how we would see them.

              My personal view is each to their own, providing that you are not presenting your image as fact - a photo-journalist "adding bits" to give their story more "punch" is totally unacceptable.

              Cheers,

              Ralph.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: "shopping in" and "cloning out" ?

                To photoshop in or out is simply art. The technique is as old as Frank Hurley and Ansel Adams.

                With regard to your images, Chevvy I think they are imaginative and great.
                My Flickr

                * mark * Wangaratta, Victoria, Australia **
                The OM-D E-M1 Mark II * OM-D M5 MkII * XZ2 * XZ1 * E3
                On post-processing: The camera kneads the dough, PP bakes the bread - Greenhill

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                • #9
                  Re: "shopping in" and "cloning out" ?

                  I agree with the general sentiment that there really is no right or wrong answer, for me personally it comes down to are you capturing an image to record something, or making a picture?

                  If I take a photograph of an aeroplane in a bland sky and use LR to add some drama, does that not change the capture of the image because it is not what they eye saw?

                  I have seen some 'shopped' aviation images that have been beautifully done. Even though by virtue of the aircratft types, numbers or location it is obvious to a knowlegeable enthuisast that it has been shopped, it does not stop them from being great pictures.

                  If such pictures are not being represented as 'out of the camera captures' I just see it as creativity. Good luck to those with the skills and know how, I wish I could do that kind of thing.
                  My images on flickr

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                  • #10
                    Re: "shopping in" and "cloning out" ?

                    I think there is a line between cheating (drastically altering important facts) and artistic licence (removing a lampost from the top of someone's head). Photography, in many ways is, and always has been, an art form. The difference being a diiferent medium and platform to produce an image.

                    Earlier this year there was a plea put on the internet by a father whose baby was covered in all sorts of medical bits and bobs. Sadly, the baby passed away. The plea, was if anyone could remove the tubes etc., to provide something to remember her short life without the painful reminders.

                    Some wonderful people responded and, the bottom line is - had you the skills, how would you have respsonded - what is right and what is wrong?

                    The rights and wrongs of any work are for the 'artist' to decide and down to living with their conscience. Deep down, we/most of us know where to draw the line - pun intended.

                    BTW Chevvie, when I got married, I too was floating on air. It took all of 40 years before I landed with a thump.
                    It's not what inspires us that is important, it's where the journey takes us.

                    Wally and his Collie with our Oly bits & bobs

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                    • #11
                      Re: "shopping in" and "cloning out" ?

                      I am happy to do anything within reason to acheive what I want to do (lack of technical skills usually limits this, LOL!). It is all to do with wanting to record exactly what you have seen (maybe warts and all) or producing a 'perfect' image.
                      By the way Chevvy, your first image looks a bit false whereas the second looks very natural (to me at least).
                      Dave

                      E-M1 Mk2, Pen F, HLD-9, 17, 25, 45, 60 macro, 12-40 Pro, 40-150 Pro, 12-50, 40-150, 75-300, MC-14, MMF-3 (all micro 4/3rds), 7-14 (4/3rds), 50, 135 (OM), GoPro Hero 3, Novo/Giottos/ Manfrotto supports. Lowepro, Tamrac, Manfrotto, and Billingham bags.

                      External Competition Secretary, Cwmbran PS & Welsh Photographic Federation Judge

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                      • #12
                        Re: "shopping in" and "cloning out" ?

                        In the "Good Old Days":

                        I had a plastic bag and gloves and would pick up bits of litter, fag ends, tins, etc., to tidy the scene. Now I just clone them out.

                        We often did double exposures, sometimes in the camera, but far more often in the darkroom, where a moon could be made a lot bigger and brighter in the picture than it ever was in nature.

                        Sandwiching slides was used to drop in a sky over a dull plain one, and we would use thinly painted & died acetate to enhance the look of the slide.

                        Go back far enough, and there were artists that would hand paint colour over a B&W print. Finishers would "spot" prints and paint/ink out blemishes.

                        Now it's just so much easier and quicker.

                        As long as there is no intention to deceive anyone, the end result is completely valid as a work of artistic skill.
                        Graham

                        We often repeat the mistakes we most enjoy...

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                        • #13
                          Re: "shopping in" and "cloning out" ?

                          Originally posted by Wally View Post
                          I think there is a line between cheating (drastically altering important facts) and artistic licence (removing a lampost from the top of someone's head). Photography, in many ways is, and always has been, an art form. The difference being a diiferent medium and platform to produce an image.

                          Earlier this year there was a plea put on the internet by a father whose baby was covered in all sorts of medical bits and bobs. Sadly, the baby passed away. The plea, was if anyone could remove the tubes etc., to provide something to remember her short life without the painful reminders.

                          Some wonderful people responded and, the bottom line is - had you the skills, how would you have respsonded - what is right and what is wrong?

                          The rights and wrongs of any work are for the 'artist' to decide and down to living with their conscience. Deep down, we/most of us know where to draw the line - pun intended.

                          BTW Chevvie, when I got married, I too was floating on air. It took all of 40 years before I landed with a thump.
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                          [I].
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                          I Lurve Walking in our Glorious Countryside; Photography;
                          Riding Ducati Motorbikes; Reading & Cooking ! ...


                          http://www.flickr.com/photos/photomagicf1_chevvy/sets/

                          the ONE photo album

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: "shopping in" and "cloning out" ?

                            Originally posted by benvendetta View Post
                            I am happy to do anything within reason to acheive what I want to do (lack of technical skills usually limits this, LOL!). It is all to do with wanting to record exactly what you have seen (maybe warts and all) or producing a 'perfect' image.
                            By the way Chevvy, your first image looks a bit false whereas the second looks very natural (to me at least).
                            Yeah Dave I agree which I why I selected these two but it was "Fun" and loved, by the Lovers wedded and their families bought smiles across the miles to all .. and often that is the objective

                            after all, all the Wedding Party loved this image the best "Zorro" OOC




                            which is a very candid, 2 seconds after the Brides Best Mate ceremoniously handed over Grandfathers Dress Sword for the Cake cutting

                            Home is where the heart is and beauty is in the eye of the beholder
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                            [I].
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                            I Lurve Walking in our Glorious Countryside; Photography;
                            Riding Ducati Motorbikes; Reading & Cooking ! ...


                            http://www.flickr.com/photos/photomagicf1_chevvy/sets/

                            the ONE photo album

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: "shopping in" and "cloning out" ?

                              Originally posted by Chevvyf1 View Post
                              Wally, Thank You for your reply and first, I have to Thank You for your amazing Joke threads - you do sooo very often make me laugh and thats worth £millions

                              I too would have "shopped out" the tubes etc., for the Parents to have a beautiful image of their darling baby for the rest of their life and I hold a candle to all those Togs who did just that, for the gift of Joy and Love to the Parents

                              Sorry to hear 40 years of floating on the "Love air" ended with a thump into reality and another world Sad but your not alone ... MOST of us have felt that thud as are ***** hits the deck ...

                              and just remember, if you caught for murder of your loved one and show inestimable remove, you get out after 15 years of good behaviour

                              Perhaps I should have added - after SWMBO passed away. I guess the 'Big Yin' upstairs had thought she had done her time in hell and deserved a well earned rest.

                              After more than 40 years of being on the wagon, even if at times it only had three wheels I knew I was happy, because she told me so.

                              When events take over for which you have no say in the matter, you still don't know what you have missed until it's gone.

                              I'm not a religious person but if there are angels, then I have been well looked after and that luck continues... after she passed away I had the wagon fixd ans it's still in top nick - so no regrets.

                              PS: Glad you enjoy the odd joke or two.
                              It's not what inspires us that is important, it's where the journey takes us.

                              Wally and his Collie with our Oly bits & bobs

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