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Birds in Flight Bif EM-5 and EM-1

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  • #61
    Re: Birds in Flight Bif EM-5 and EM-1

    I guess we'll only know the answer to whether user contrast/colour settings can improve autofocus by talking to someone who understands the camera's hardware and software in some detail. At a simplistic level it would seem to me that some sort of high level processing chain like the following must be happening (many times a second):

    - Read data from sensor
    - Run de-mosaic
    - Apply tone curves and other image processing (e.g. Sharpening)
    - Render image on EVF (incl adding text overlays and doing display only changes such as display colour temperature)

    JPEG conversion would I think only happen when the shutter is pressed (well, at least, it doesn't need to be done before).

    Where AF processing fits in this chain is speculation since I don't see any reason in principle why it couldn't happen after any of the steps. This includes working off the raw data since if contrast detect is all we're doing then we don't need to do the demosaicing. Equally, it could be done after the application of tone curves and if so, then changes to the contrast settings would influence its behaviour.

    It would be nice to do some controlled tests, but I suspect it'll be a difficult thing to do properly.
    Paul
    E-M1ii, Pen-F and too many lenses
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    • #62
      Re: Birds in Flight Bif EM-5 and EM-1

      Originally posted by pdk42 View Post
      Where AF processing fits in this chain is speculation since I don't see any reason in principle why it couldn't happen after any of the steps. This includes working off the raw data since if contrast detect is all we're doing then we don't need to do the demosaicing.
      This was my point in my earlier post... if I were the engineer designing this thing, I'd want to get the focus data as soon as possible to give the best possible performance.

      Steve
      Steve

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      • #63
        Re: Birds in Flight Bif EM-5 and EM-1

        Originally posted by raichea View Post
        This was my point in my earlier post... if I were the engineer designing this thing, I'd want to get the focus data as soon as possible to give the best possible performance.

        Steve
        The way I look at it is that all the information, including user adjustments, is continuously being streamed from the sensor to the EVF. The process doesn't start with a press of whichever button is being used to engage focus, it is already happening at many times a second anyway.
        John

        "A hundredth of a second here, a hundredth of a second there � even if you put them end to end, they still only add up to one, two, perhaps three seconds, snatched from eternity." ~ Robert Doisneau

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        • #64
          Re: Birds in Flight Bif EM-5 and EM-1

          Originally posted by Zuiko View Post
          The way I look at it is that all the information, including user adjustments, is continuously being streamed from the sensor to the EVF. The process doesn't start with a press of whichever button is being used to engage focus, it is already happening at many times a second anyway.
          True... but getting data later will still cause inaccuracies if things are changing... a bit like not knowing whether the sun has exploded for 8 minutes...
          Steve

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          • #65
            Re: Birds in Flight Bif EM-5 and EM-1

            Without trying to be in any way disrespectful to these explanations do people know or they are guessing based upon what they would do having some detailed knowledge of the inner workings of a camera.

            I would love to know in detail how the Oly designers implemented their features in this camera as in any other but so would the competition. We are not going to find out all you can do is experiment and judge for yourself by the results. I do not know enough about the way in which a camera takes light from a lens and converts it into a picture. I did have experience of converting analogue values to digital values in process control. If you give that task to 10 designers the chances are you will get 10 different ways of doing it.

            I for one would rather folk reported upon the results rather than any guessing how that result was obtained. Sorry if that offends its not my intention but this forum is so useful I would not like to se it degenerate to a series of misinformation on the inner workings of a camera..
            John

            OM-D E-M1, 12-40 f2.8 Pro, Tamron 14-150mm f5.8, E5, E3, Zuiko 50-200mm SWD, Zuiko 12-60mm SWD, Zuiko ED 70-300mm f5.6, 50mmf2, Zuiko ED 9-18mm f5.6, Sigma 50-500mm f6.3, EC14, EC20, RM-1, VA-1

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            • #66
              Re: Birds in Flight Bif EM-5 and EM-1

              Quite agree with you "birdboy" - data rule - interpretation can wait

              So, let's share what we get (and not get hung up on hypothetical argument! )

              More importantly, if we share details of How we do something then others are able to try it for themselves and report back whether they are able to reproduce the observations - the "Scientific Method"

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              • #67
                Re: Birds in Flight Bif EM-5 and EM-1

                Originally posted by Chevvyf1 View Post

                Matt Hope told me some settings to try, which he and Bryce Bradfield used and it enhanced their images captured of aircraft and Birds in Flight ! I hold both these chaps in the same "group" as yourself and the man from Bug - you all know a lot more than I now KNOW - or ever want too KNOW, about the technical design and workings of ??? !

                BUT it works
                You are quite right Chevvy , it works.

                Having seen Matt's photos and as an electronics engineer thought about it I am satisfied that it is quite reasonable that it should work.

                Regards.
                Peter

                she looked at me and said "It's official. I hate your camera. It's just so amazing and perfect I want one!"

                E-M10 MK II, E-M5, E-PL1, E-PM2, mZ 12-50, mZ 14-42mm EZ, mZ 17mm f 1.8, mZ 25mm f1.8, mZ 45mm f1.8, mZ 75-300mm II.
                OM1n, OM 50mm f1.8.
                Oly Viewer3, Dxo Pro 11. FastStone.

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                • #68
                  Re: Birds in Flight Bif EM-5 and EM-1

                  Originally posted by birdboy View Post
                  Without trying to be in any way disrespectful to these explanations do people know or they are guessing based upon what they would do having some detailed knowledge of the inner workings of a camera.

                  I would love to know in detail how the Oly designers implemented their features in this camera as in any other but so would the competition. We are not going to find out all you can do is experiment and judge for yourself by the results. I do not know enough about the way in which a camera takes light from a lens and converts it into a picture. I did have experience of converting analogue values to digital values in process control. If you give that task to 10 designers the chances are you will get 10 different ways of doing it.

                  I for one would rather folk reported upon the results rather than any guessing how that result was obtained. Sorry if that offends its not my intention but this forum is so useful I would not like to se it degenerate to a series of misinformation on the inner workings of a camera..
                  Oh, in my case there is a lot of assumption based on what I can see in the viewfinder when settings are changed, even when shooting raw only. I don't offer those assumptions as in any way factual, merely plausible. You are right that we are in danger of getting bogged down in theoretical debate and the best way of evaluating the beneficial effect or otherwise of certain settings is to take side by side comparrisons in the field and post them on this forum.
                  John

                  "A hundredth of a second here, a hundredth of a second there � even if you put them end to end, they still only add up to one, two, perhaps three seconds, snatched from eternity." ~ Robert Doisneau

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                  • #69
                    Re: Birds in Flight Bif EM-5 and EM-1

                    Well, I'm part way through processing my images from the Hawk Conservancy today and there is Good News, Not so Good News and Bad News:

                    I'll get the "Bad" out of the way first, whilst I was experimenting with the Release Lag-time setting on Short (to see if I could cut down on the time it took for the CAF to grab the bird) I had 3 episodes of total lock up (I've reported this and await a reply from Olympus Support) Until I hear back from them to the contrary I would suggest it may be prudent to avoid using the Short setting for Release Shutter Lag with CAF.

                    What happened was that I heard a clunk and the EVF view jerked to the left (each time). Shortly afterward there was another clunk and the system locked solid, with the last shot showing on the LCD (which I had switched off!).

                    When I removed the battery there was another clunk and the system freed itself, the noise was similar to that which you here when you switch the system to Short Lag-time release, switch off and the on again

                    I think I will pause there to post this before moving on to the better news

                    (oh, by the way, the not so good news was that the light was dreadful and I was shooting ISO 800 - 1600 most of the time so not a lot of pics I'm particularly proud off / would want to share, but there may a few examples

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                    • #70
                      Re: Birds in Flight Bif EM-5 and EM-1

                      Pt 2 The Good News:

                      CAF works with BIF shots from Lanner Falcon to Kites and Herons (but struggled a bit with the Peregrine - mind you, this could be because I struggled to keep up with it too )

                      I was working with the 75-300 and the 40-50 (to try for a bit more aperture latitude to cope with the aforementioned bad light) but the 40-150 was really too short a lot of the time

                      I tried it with IS in mode 1, Auto and Off and had the impression that Off was probably the most effective (but made acquiring and keeping the bird in the view-finder more difficult)

                      Normal CAF lock still seems to give the best results in this session and I stuck with 6 frames a second to enable focus following (which seemed to work quite well)

                      I've just been called away from the keyboard so will end this bit with my summation of how I see the EM-1 for BIF us vs the EM-5 and Canon 7D (scoring out of 10)

                      7D =10 (as my reference standard)

                      EM-1 = 8

                      EM-5 = 3

                      (subjective ratings based on the ease of acquiring the subject, keeping focus lock on and the final image)

                      I'll try and give some "Ferinstances" on what worked well, what was less good and what failed + a few pics later (so long as you promise not to criticise the pics, as I said above, there is nothing I am proud of)

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                      • #71
                        Re: Birds in Flight Bif EM-5 and EM-1

                        Originally posted by brian1208 View Post
                        Well, I'm part way through processing my images from the Hawk Conservancy today and there is Good News, Not so Good News and Bad News:

                        I'll get the "Bad" out of the way first, whilst I was experimenting with the Release Lag-time setting on Short (to see if I could cut down on the time it took for the CAF to grab the bird) I had 3 episodes of total lock up (I've reported this and await a reply from Olympus Support) Until I hear back from them to the contrary I would suggest it may be prudent to avoid using the Short setting for Release Shutter Lag with CAF.

                        What happened was that I heard a clunk and the EVF view jerked to the left (each time). Shortly afterward there was another clunk and the system locked solid, with the last shot showing on the LCD (which I had switched off!).

                        When I removed the battery there was another clunk and the system freed itself, the noise was similar to that which you here when you switch the system to Short Lag-time release, switch off and the on again

                        I think I will pause there to post this before moving on to the better news

                        (oh, by the way, the not so good news was that the light was dreadful and I was shooting ISO 800 - 1600 most of the time so not a lot of pics I'm particularly proud off / would want to share, but there may a few examples
                        Brian, I have had EVF "blackouts" (the view went black and a clunk or two ... as if something stuck ) ... and thought it was me at Hayling last week and today at a Trout Farm ... and taking Dragonflys and Swans with a Crow here and there I was using C-AF and Tr and Is off cannot recall all other settings ...

                        I wonder ... I hear that a few "firmware updates are due soon - mainly for "unable to be completed functionality" ... but in the software industry it was also for "bug fixing"
                        .
                        .
                        [I].
                        .
                        I Lurve Walking in our Glorious Countryside; Photography;
                        Riding Ducati Motorbikes; Reading & Cooking ! ...


                        http://www.flickr.com/photos/photomagicf1_chevvy/sets/

                        the ONE photo album

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                        • #72
                          Re: Birds in Flight Bif EM-5 and EM-1

                          Originally posted by Chevvyf1 View Post
                          Brian, I have had EVF "blackouts" (the view went black and a clunk or two ... as if something stuck ) ... and thought it was me at Hayling last week and today at a Trout Farm ... and taking Dragonflys and Swans with a Crow here and there

                          I wonder ... I hear that a few "firmware updates are due soon - mainly for "unable to be completed functionality" ... but in the software industry it was also for "bug fixing"

                          were you able to clear it by switching off / on or did you require a battery out to sort it?

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                          • #73
                            Re: Birds in Flight Bif EM-5 and EM-1

                            Originally posted by brian1208 View Post
                            were you able to clear it by switching off / on or did you require a battery out to sort it?
                            switching off and on did not clear it - battery out ! and it was a new fully charged battery about 15 images earlier ! so not a dying battery !
                            .
                            .
                            [I].
                            .
                            I Lurve Walking in our Glorious Countryside; Photography;
                            Riding Ducati Motorbikes; Reading & Cooking ! ...


                            http://www.flickr.com/photos/photomagicf1_chevvy/sets/

                            the ONE photo album

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                            • #74
                              Re: Birds in Flight Bif EM-5 and EM-1

                              Sounds very similar, what setting were you using?

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                              • #75
                                Re: Birds in Flight Bif EM-5 and EM-1

                                Originally posted by brian1208 View Post
                                Sounds very similar, what setting were you using?
                                C-AF+Tr ; and IS off ; Contrast +2 ; Art Filter = Vivid ? Manual and ?

                                I deleted most of the images seeking perfection ... maybe reading your review I am selling this lot and off to Canon now !
                                .
                                .
                                [I].
                                .
                                I Lurve Walking in our Glorious Countryside; Photography;
                                Riding Ducati Motorbikes; Reading & Cooking ! ...


                                http://www.flickr.com/photos/photomagicf1_chevvy/sets/

                                the ONE photo album

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