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Ballpoint pen tip seen through my bellows

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  • Ballpoint pen tip seen through my bellows

    Olympus macro bellows and OM 35 mm lens reversed. Magnification is about 16:1



    Unfortunately, the original image looks like this, full of dirt specs on the CCD. Not really disturbing in small format, but larger it is terrible.



    A 100% crop shows just how bad it is.

    .

    It is not the lens, definitely the CCD. Regardless of which lens I use, it is the same and the spots are on the same place. The image below is taken with the ED50/f2 macro lens mounted on my bellows. It also clearly shows the specs.



    A question to all of you with bellows. Could you check your camera the same way? Macro bellows at maximum extension, white (or light) background, aperture at f22. Of course, all the E-3 should be too new to show theses nasty dust/pollen or whatever.

    Cheers.

  • #2
    Re: Ballpoint pen tip seen through my bellows

    Thanks for your posting OlyFlyer

    Thats an interesting series of images. How effective is the dust removal system? I would hate to have a camera without it.

    I have often wondered what happens to the dust/pollen that is removed from the CCD. It must remain in the body and need for cleaning must therefore become greater over time.

    Can you provide any info on this please?

    Cheers

    PeterD

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Ballpoint pen tip seen through my bellows

      Actually, as I see it, it is only a problem at very high magnification. Up to 1:1 I can not see any specks, so I assume my kind of problem is limited to a very few people, but certainly people with macro bellows should watch out for it.
      I really trust the SSWF, and can imagine how it would be if I did not had one.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Ballpoint pen tip seen through my bellows

        Originally posted by OlyFlyer View Post
        Actually, as I see it, it is only a problem at very high magnification. Up to 1:1 I can not see any specks, so I assume my kind of problem is limited to a very few people, but certainly people with macro bellows should watch out for it.
        I really trust the SSWF, and can imagine how it would be if I did not had one.
        Thanks for the reply OlyFlyer. I shall breath a sigh of relief. Of course it is more critical at the higher magnifications and perhaps a useful reminder to all who are into Macro.

        Kind regards

        PeterD

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Ballpoint pen tip seen through my bellows

          Originally posted by OlyFlyer View Post
          Unfortunately, the original image looks like this, full of dirt specs on the CCD. Not really disturbing in small format, but larger it is terrible.
          It's interesting - and I think significant - that the spots take the form of a dark doughnut shape surrounded by a lighter ring.

          I need to think about it more, but I wonder if the shape of the spots is characteristic of pollen grains? IIRC the pollen grains I've seen under a microscope are semi-transparent, in which case they may act like little lenses to produce the effect. Light entering the grain would tend to be refracted to the middle under the grain to produce the light spot, whilst light striking the sides of the grain at a low angle of incidence would be reflected to produce the halo surrounding the grain.

          Jim Ford

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          • #6
            Re: Ballpoint pen tip seen through my bellows

            Please excuse my ignorance here, but wouldn't these alleges dust specs turn up on any and every image if the images are 100% framed...? If you use a bellows, isn't all that happens is that one gets to see a close-up highly magnified image of the subject matter - that then fits on the same sized sensor as if one had taken an image of a landscape view at 3 miles away?

            There are the same number of pixels on the image i.e. approx 3.5k x 2.5k, and as such wouldn't the alleged dirt/pollen specs still show up. The fact that a bellows is used shouldn't make a bit of difference as far as I can tell.

            I will of course bow to the better knowledge of experienced photographers, but please do convince me because as of now, I can't see a bellows making any difference. If there's dirt on the sensor, it would show on any image.
            John

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Ballpoint pen tip seen through my bellows

              Originally posted by theMusicMan View Post
              Please excuse my ignorance here, but wouldn't these alleges dust specs turn up on any and every image if the images are 100% framed...? If you use a bellows, isn't all that happens is that one gets to see a close-up highly magnified image of the subject matter - that then fits on the same sized sensor as if one had taken an image of a landscape view at 3 miles away?

              There are the same number of pixels on the image i.e. approx 3.5k x 2.5k, and as such wouldn't the alleged dirt/pollen specs still show up. The fact that a bellows is used shouldn't make a bit of difference as far as I can tell.

              I will of course bow to the better knowledge of experienced photographers, but please do convince me because as of now, I can't see a bellows making any difference. If there's dirt on the sensor, it would show on any image.
              Thanks John. I was just getting comfortable with the thought that I should not worry. That was until you came up with the above reply
              I suppose I shall have to go back to my original query of the efficiency of the dust protection system and where does the removed dust go to?

              PeterD
              Last edited by PeterD; 20th January 2008, 09:36 AM. Reason: spelling

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Ballpoint pen tip seen through my bellows

                Originally posted by theMusicMan View Post
                I will of course bow to the better knowledge of experienced photographers, but please do convince me because as of now, I can't see a bellows making any difference. If there's dirt on the sensor, it would show on any image.
                That certainly makes sense.

                Richard
                In theory there's no difference between theory and practice but in practice there is.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Ballpoint pen tip seen through my bellows

                  Very sorry Peter...!! Maybe Ian or another expert on here might like to comment and add their experience to the pot?
                  John

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Ballpoint pen tip seen through my bellows

                    Originally posted by PeterD View Post
                    ....
                    I suppose I shall have to go back to my original query of the efficiency of the dust protection system and where does the removed dust go to?

                    PeterD
                    "The SSWF ..blah..... The removed dust is then captured on an adhesive absorber at the bottom of the filter. ...blah... "
                    From Oly site here
                    John

                    m4/3: E-P2, EM-5, 100-300, 14-42mm 12-50mm, 45mm, panny 14mm. 4/3: 7-14 + Flashes & tripods & stuff

                    "Take nothing but pictures and leave nothing but footprints".

                    Flickr gallery

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Ballpoint pen tip seen through my bellows

                      Originally posted by jdal View Post
                      "The SSWF ..blah..... The removed dust is then captured on an adhesive absorber at the bottom of the filter. ...blah... "
                      From Oly site here
                      Thanks for your post John and also for pointing me back to the olympus site. Looking at the origin of this post (From OlyFlyer), It still leaves me the question how efficient is the SSWF. I am assuming that that the balloint images were made using a SSWF fitted camera.

                      Best regards

                      PeterD

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Ballpoint pen tip seen through my bellows

                        Originally posted by PeterD View Post
                        Thanks for your post John and also for pointing me back to the olympus site. Looking at the origin of this post (From OlyFlyer), It still leaves me the question how efficient is the SSWF. I am assuming that that the balloint images were made using a SSWF fitted camera.

                        Best regards

                        PeterD
                        I asked about this at the V&A event and Oly person informed me that the dust absorber at the bottom of the filter is designed for the life of the camera, i.e. it is not like the crumb tray in a toaster :-). The Oly guy also mentioned that if you have your camera serviced then the dust absorber is replaced with a new one.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Ballpoint pen tip seen through my bellows

                          Originally posted by PeterD View Post
                          ... I am assuming that that the balloint images were made using a SSWF fitted camera.
                          ...
                          Looking at Olyflyers profile it's an E-500. The oly website blurb is a bit vague, but it does admit that liquids can be a problem and "In such instances, wiping the optical element, such as the Low Pass and Infrared filters, in front of the image sensor with cleaning fluid is effective. ...". I think in this example, sticky pollen may be the culprit.

                          FWIW, I've just take a couple of shots of the ever present gray skies with my E1 at f22 with two different lenses and there are two very indistinct spots. I would never have noticed unless I was looking for them. This is after 18 months. I can only think that these are dust, but nothing like the spots on the OP images.

                          SSWF obviously isnt 100%, but it's near enough for me.
                          John

                          m4/3: E-P2, EM-5, 100-300, 14-42mm 12-50mm, 45mm, panny 14mm. 4/3: 7-14 + Flashes & tripods & stuff

                          "Take nothing but pictures and leave nothing but footprints".

                          Flickr gallery

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Ballpoint pen tip seen through my bellows

                            Originally posted by Jim Ford View Post
                            It's interesting - and I think significant - that the spots take the form of a dark doughnut shape surrounded by a lighter ring.

                            I need to think about it more, but I wonder if the shape of the spots is characteristic of pollen grains? IIRC the pollen grains I've seen under a microscope are semi-transparent, in which case they may act like little lenses to produce the effect. Light entering the grain would tend to be refracted to the middle under the grain to produce the light spot, whilst light striking the sides of the grain at a low angle of incidence would be reflected to produce the halo surrounding the grain.

                            Jim Ford
                            Jim, it is an interesting observation, but I don't think we will get a definte answer. I think I let experts do the work, and send my camera to Oly. If they are going to analyse the residue or not, I let them to decide.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Ballpoint pen tip seen through my bellows

                              Looking at another image I took yesterday to see how it effects in normal shooting it is very clear that the answer should be none at all or very little. This is a sky image taken yesterday using the ED50/f2 at f/22 to get the maximum effect.



                              I dare say that it can hardly be detected, even at 100% crop of the area where it actually exists.



                              Can you see anything? Anyway, even if you can, it can hardly be called disturbing. However, by careful pixel peeping, I could identify these spots below.



                              I can not imagine that a normal user would bother about this, that's why I asked those who have bellows to take a similar, high magnification image at f/22 to check their cameras.

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