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Nostalgia Nexus - early and pre-digital discussion Want to discuss the really early days of digital and even film - here is the place for you.

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Old 11th January 2017
Ricoh Ricoh is offline
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The lure of the uncomplicated camera

This http://35mmc.us8.list-manage.com/tra...d&e=c75fd457ce puts into words the way I feel about complicated cameras. Last night I had to dig out the instruction manual for my EM5 MK 1 to enable me to set back button focus. If a camera needs a 300 page instruction manual it's far too complicated. Would you agree?
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Old 11th January 2017
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Re: The lure of the uncomplicated camera

One of the reasons my cameras are always set to iAuto when in the bags...

They are a bit like the 365 piece DiY tool set, that you only ever use the hammer, pliers and a few screwdrivers.

While there are many features I don't use, the ones that do get used a lot work exceptionally well.

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Old 11th January 2017
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Re: The lure of the uncomplicated camera

The most annoying thing I find is when I forget to reset menus and then try to use the camera on another subject, by the time you reset, the moment is lost!

I do use my EM-5, but ALL the menus are switched off, so, as far as I am concerned, a waste of space. My priority is the picture, editing is for the correct programme.
But, as the others know, I learn't with simple film cameras where I had to make the decisions. If Olympus ever make a professional digital camera with Manual and Aperture only and an exposure control button I will be first in the line to buy.
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Old 11th January 2017
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Re: The lure of the uncomplicated camera

Steve - if you were not north of the barbed wire, I would be running up the motorway to give you a hug - and several beers
Lets try to keep this thread going - there may be other lost souls like us who could do with some succour.
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Old 11th January 2017
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Re: The lure of the uncomplicated camera

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Originally Posted by Ricoh View Post
If a camera needs a 300 page instruction manual it's far too complicated. Would you agree?
No just the camera is badly designed, if you need to refer to it often. I suspect 30 pages or more is actually photography basics you'd have no use for.

A camera can have loads of complicated options, without being difficult to use in the standard modes.

I'd say that my film cameras where a lot more complicated in many ways. I had to know which film would give the result I wanted, and with the oldest ones estimate the exposure settings and focus without any help from the camera.

I've heard reports that the Panasonic menus are easier to find your way round than Olympus ones. A shame if true because Olympus cameras generally look better otherwise.

There have been cameras I've been asked to help with at workshop sessions where this isn't the case - even just finding how to change the aperture can prove awkward on someone else's camera. (Last time it proved to be a thin control round the D pad that I couldn't see was there at all.)
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Old 11th January 2017
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Re: The lure of the uncomplicated camera

Without a doubt, the Olympus menus in particular are complex. Part of this is bad or no design - features get added over time, and a menu structure that seemed fine in a simpler time becomes so much spaghetti. The other part is the tremendous configurability of the camera. With my E-M1, I found that I was able to shoot most of the the without referencing the menus - but only after it was setup, which took some time.

A number of reviewers have complained about the E-M1ii menus, which changed somewhat from the first version. I find it's a step in the right direction. You can't win - keep the old menu structure even as the feature set grows and it is increasingly disorganized, or reorganize a bit and get complaints that it has changed.
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Old 12th January 2017
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Re: The lure of the uncomplicated camera

My bodies are set up as a digital OM2. I wonder if Yoshihisa Maitani would be happy about the gimmick laden models bearing the OM designation these days.
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Old 12th January 2017
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Re: The lure of the uncomplicated camera

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My bodies are set up as a digital OM2.
How do you do that, I'm interested to know. Clearly it's a compromise, acknowledging Olympus decided to make most of the buttons and knobs customisable, meaning wheel 1 and 2 have no absolute value, they keep rotating until your finger gets tiered. Panasonic are slightly better with aperture setting directly on the lens, well on some, not on all, eg the 15/1.7, but at least the camera body communicates with electronic-glass.
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Old 12th January 2017
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Re: The lure of the uncomplicated camera

This is one thing the old E1 got right in my humble opinion. A SPAM dial with a lock button (so it doesn't get knocked into some funny mode), no funny modes like "scene" or "art" to confuse you, and a fairly simple menu system. It has one button per function (rather than multiple re-assignable buttons and a mad menu). Excellent.

If they made a m43 E1 style pro camera with no video features, no flash, and six pre-assigned buttons that I would be tempted. However we left behind less is more some time ago. The only sort of more these days is more more :-)
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Old 12th January 2017
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Re: The lure of the uncomplicated camera

'SPAM', I like it
In my 'humble' opinion there is absolutely NO need for the PASM dial; assigning it to ISO would be a far, far better use. Remembering that aperture is primarily used for the control of DoF, one is left with two controls for exposure. Assigning wheel 1(I forget the exact terms and designation used by Olympus - perhaps I need to refer to that 300 page instruction manual again!) to SS, and if they must control aperture on the camera body (how counter intuitive is that) wheel 2 (ie the other one) for the control of aperture.
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Old 12th January 2017
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Re: The lure of the uncomplicated camera

This thread is starting to show what the challenge is. Different people like different menu and dial layouts. A newbie to photography has different needs to an experienced user so there is no one answer. The Oly menu system is just different to the Pano one which is different to Canon which is different to Nikon it goes on and on.

If you used the camera for one kind of shooting in the main then you forget the other functions due to lack of practice, that happens with all cameras. The Oly cameras are trying to please everyone but you can't please all the people all the time as the saying goes.
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Old 12th January 2017
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Re: The lure of the uncomplicated camera

I've adapted reasonably well to the E-M1, -5ii, and the Fuji ethos-es.

Although coming to it late I do like the Fuji's top-plate speed and +/- dials, with aperture round the lens, and I can understand how people take to them immediately, especially if they've used film cameras back in the day.

The real killer for Oly, though, is that once you've set them up to suit they can be adapted to match a whole load of different ways of working. This works very well indeed for the E-M1 (seemingly also the ii) which has got plenty of customisable hardware dials, buttons and levers, but slightly less well for the 5ii where you give up configurability and some handling speed for small size.

I'm now even coming round more to appreciate the handling of the Sony A7Rii: the whole camera is designed for 'deliberate' shooting and is never going to be a speed star. However, once you've set up what useful stuff you can on the Fn menu on the rear screen (and stopped cursing the facts that you can't touch the screen to focus, plus there are some features that can't be put on the Fn menu) it all makes a lot more sense.
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Old 12th January 2017
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Re: The lure of the uncomplicated camera

I don't find my EM1 complicated at all. Just leave it on Aperture priority all the time and it's fine. It's only when I knock that dratted lever by mistake that it all goes pear shaped Just cause it's complicated doesn't mean you have to use it complicated.
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Old 12th January 2017
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Re: The lure of the uncomplicated camera

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Originally Posted by snaarman View Post
This is one thing the old E1 got right in my humble opinion. A SPAM dial with a lock button (so it doesn't get knocked into some funny mode), no funny modes like "scene" or "art" to confuse you, and a fairly simple menu system. It has one button per function (rather than multiple re-assignable buttons and a mad menu). Excellent.

If they made a m43 E1 style pro camera with no video features, no flash, and six pre-assigned buttons that I would be tempted. However we left behind less is more some time ago. The only sort of more these days is more more :-)
Or a three position switch, manual, off, auto (aperture priority). Oh, wait, that would make it an OM2. I've never used S or P so more redundant features.
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Old 12th January 2017
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Re: The lure of the uncomplicated camera

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Or a three position switch, manual, off, auto (aperture priority). Oh, wait, that would make it an OM2. I've never used S or P so more redundant features.
I can (Donald) Trump that: One switch, off /on. Leaving Aperture, SS, ISO and Focus all being separate dedicated controls with logical placement.
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