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  #76  
Old 20th April 2017
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Re: Uk snap election

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Originally Posted by Jim Ford View Post
I firmly believe that the Tories are setting the NHS up to fail, so that they can say: It's a shame, it's had it's day and it was fine while it lasted, but is no longer suitable for our current situation. They will then use that as an excuse for privatisation.

Jim
I don't think so. Labour did more to privatise the NHS through Gordon Brown's PFI initiatives than the Tories. That has already taken billions out of NHS funding and will continue to do so for the remainder of our lifetimes, if not longer.

Likewise the hundreds of new school buildings built on Gordon's PFI credit card, with interest rates that would embarrass even Wonga.

I think you are confusing bungling incompetence and political meddling with a political agenda. Given that neither Labour or the Tories seem to have any clear agenda right now I think that is unlikely.

I am very interested in Chairman Mark's comments on the NHS as an insider.

From what I can see, simply pouring more money into the NHS won't solve anything, as the money would simply be wasted. The NHS already wastes eye-watering amounts of money so there has to be efficiency savings somewhere, but the organisation also needs proper funding for the work that it does so well.

This may be unpopular, but I wonder whether the taxes raised on alcohol, tobacco and junk foods come anywhere near to covering the cost of these to the NHS?

As for mental health I wouldn't have a clue where to start, and from where I am standing I don't think the politicians have a clue either.
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  #77  
Old 20th April 2017
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Unhappy Re: Uk snap election

A "Steer" is a castrated bull, capable of producing far less BS than the current bunch of "politicians" put together...

Virtually every thing I hear them say, I have real trouble believing.

We desperately need a "None of the Above" option on voting slips, that rejects them all...

I freely admit to being at a loss to see anything good coming from this, which is really difficult for me as I am usually very positive and optimistic.
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Old 20th April 2017
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Re: Uk snap election

Is there a country that has a good health care system we should model our system on - Cuba perhaps, low wage hi tax large number of doctors perhaps?

By a good system I mean one it is financial balance and healing the population.
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Old 20th April 2017
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Re: Uk snap election

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Originally Posted by Naughty Nigel View Post
I don't think so. Labour did more to privatise the NHS through Gordon Brown's PFI initiatives than the Tories. That has already taken billions out of NHS funding and will continue to do so ..
Come on Nigel, that's OTT. I totally agree these PFI contracts are an absolute disgrace, and cost the public purse ridiculous amounts of money, but they do not amount to the systematic privatisation being undertaken at the moment by the Conservative Party.

We are talking about a Health Secretary who deliberately demoralises and insults staff using such blatant distortions of the facts that even the ONS has to step in (on the weekend A&E cover claim). We are talking about underfunding of care so that hospital beds cannot be freed up and the NHS is seen to be at fault. We are talking about the wholesale handing over of contracts for health services to the private sector.

The fact is, the NHS was in massively better shape at the end of the last Labour governments years than the shambles we see now and there is a LOT more than PFI to blame

For the record I am no fan of Blair or Brown, they were economically Thatcherites (IMHO), although that government did do some good stuff (FOI act, CROW, Min Wage type of thing )
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  #80  
Old 20th April 2017
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Re: Uk snap election

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Originally Posted by Graham_of_Rainham View Post
A "Steer" is a castrated bull, capable of producing far less BS than the current bunch of "politicians" put together...

Virtually every thing I hear them say, I have real trouble believing.

We desperately need a "None of the Above" option on voting slips, that rejects them all...

I freely admit to being at a loss to see anything good coming from this, which is really difficult for me as I am usually very positive and optimistic.
Methinks we desperately need a change in direction.

Much of our economy is driven by those who live for retail therapy. The UK buys more online than any other country in the world. And most of our retail products come from abroad.

There are a lot of people who earn shed loads of money (relatively speaking) but they are never satisfied with what they have, and still get into debt to buy the latest 'must have' car, iPhone, entertainment system or whatever.

One of our neighbours, who regularly returns from shopping trips with a car load of bags and boxes, hired a skip over the Easter weekend, which was filled to the brim with unwanted stuff by Easter Monday.

Meanwhile others struggle to emulate the above with less money further down the food chain. Simply redistributing wealth will never work.

For their part, the High Street chains base their business plans on 4% minimum growth, year on year, and face collapse if they don't achieve this, (hence the scandal of declaring greater profits than were actually achieved).

Interestingly, large numbers of people are becoming increasingly unhappy with their shallow, wasteful, retail therapy driven lives, and are seeking a new meaning to life that doesn't involve an expensive trip to the High Street every Saturday and Sunday.

I don't know whether any politician can deliver this.
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  #81  
Old 20th April 2017
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Re: Uk snap election

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Originally Posted by DerekW View Post
Is there a country that has a good health care system we should model our system on - Cuba perhaps, low wage hi tax large number of doctors perhaps?

By a good system I mean one it is financial balance and healing the population.
Good question. I can't think of one.
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  #82  
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Re: Uk snap election

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Originally Posted by jdal View Post
Come on Nigel, that's OTT. I totally agree these PFI contracts are an absolute disgrace, and cost the public purse ridiculous amounts of money, but they do not amount to the systematic privatisation being undertaken at the moment by the Conservative Party.

We are talking about a Health Secretary who deliberately demoralises and insults staff using such blatant distortions of the facts that even the ONS has to step in (on the weekend A&E cover claim). We are talking about underfunding of care so that hospital beds cannot be freed up and the NHS is seen to be at fault. We are talking about the wholesale handing over of contracts for health services to the private sector.

The fact is, the NHS was in massively better shape at the end of the last Labour governments years than the shambles we see now and there is a LOT more than PFI to blame

For the record I am no fan of Blair or Brown, they were economically Thatcherites (IMHO), although that government did do some good stuff (FOI act, CROW, Min Wage type of thing )
So what do you suggest. Pour another £100,000,000,000 into the NHS every year?

I agree that Jeremy Hunt is a disgrace, (he and many others), but the whole idea of privatising certain services is to deliver them at lower cost. This must be valid because Gordon Brown was doing the same thing during his time in office, just as he went ahead with rail privatisation.

The need for cost saving might not have been so urgent were it not for the very costly GP Contracts negotiated by Labour.


The fact is that the NHS is an extremely wasteful organisation; a fact which is readily conceded by many NHS staff themselves. In my view it would be far better to cut some of that waste rather than simply pouring yet more money down the same plughole.
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  #83  
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Re: Uk snap election

Relevant to the discussion is The Butterfly Effect.

The outcome of your election affects all, politique sans frontières.
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  #84  
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Re: Uk snap election

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Originally Posted by pandora View Post
Relevant to the discussion is The Butterfly Effect.

The outcome of your election affects all, politique sans frontières.
In this instance it was a talented artistic butterfly who flapped his wings in Australia and caused at least 2 days of controversy in the UK, 83 posts to date with no doubt more to come, many people hot under the collar and poor overworked John ( Zuiko ) trying his best to avoid a forum battle to end all battles.

Good on ya Mark, at least its made interesting reading in the lounge and given people the chance to voice their opinions. And, for the most part it's all been very amicable and friendly.

Keep up the good work !

John
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Re: Uk snap election

Little doubt the Conservatives will come through with an improved majority, and no doubt a cabinet shuffle. If I was Philip May I would be advising my wife to give the boot to Jeremy and to Boris.
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Old 21st April 2017
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Re: Uk snap election

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Originally Posted by Johnheatingman View Post
In this instance it was a talented artistic butterfly who flapped his wings in Australia and caused at least 2 days of controversy in the UK, 83 posts to date with no doubt more to come, many people hot under the collar and poor overworked John ( Zuiko ) trying his best to avoid a forum battle to end all battles.

Good on ya Mark, at least its made interesting reading in the lounge and given people the chance to voice their opinions. And, for the most part it's all been very amicable and friendly.

Keep up the good work ! John
Thank you, John. I didn't foresee the Butterfly Effect until it had happened and the topic took on wings of its own.

I do believe that when the policy & purpose of the Lounge is adhered to by all then mature and intelligent conversation on any hot topic can take place without acrimony.

Well I did get to read your differing views with much interest and a respect for them all. It will be even more interesting to see what happens on June 8, nothing can be taken for granted.

As it happens, I will be 3,000km away in Darwin, NT for a 10 day campervan tour and taking in the Barunga Festival.
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Old 21st April 2017
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Re: Uk snap election

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politique sans frontières.
I though we were voting for politique avec frontières.

Harold
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Re: Uk snap election

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Originally Posted by Ricoh View Post
Little doubt the Conservatives will come through with an improved majority, and no doubt a cabinet shuffle. If I was Philip May I would be advising my wife to give the boot to Jeremy and to Boris.
Jeremy should be fired without a doubt. I quite like Boris and enjoy his speeches for their wit, but I cannot help but feel that his position as Foreign Secretary is a bit like keeping a box of matches in the gun cotton store.
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Re: Uk snap election

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I though we were voting for politique avec frontières.
Harold
Absolutely not, Harold. Whatever the outcome on June 8 will indirectly affect the rest of the world. If Theresa emerges with an increased majority it will enhance her bargaining position with Brussels if it is seen that she has the country behind her. And in her own right she will also be your elected PM. To expect politicians to be truthful or to keep promises is naive - that is the nature of politics. Australia is only one of a number of countries lining up to do trade deals with you.
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Old 21st April 2017
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Re: Uk snap election

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To expect politicians to be truthful or to keep promises is naive - that is the nature of politics.
That is sadly true. I am still waiting for Harold Wilson to reverse the closure of our railways, as he promised if elected in 1964, but circumstances change.

(To be fair, he did save one line on the Welsh borders which ran through three key Labour marginal constituencies.)

Politicians in opposition often make promises based on supposed facts, and it is not until they get into power that they can know for sure whether their promises are achievable, or even whether the Civil Servants will allow it.

Some politicians in opposition make promises on the assumption that they will never be in a position to fulfil them, but are then caught out when events overtake them.

It is not often that I seek to defend Liberals, but in my view the Lib Dems have been unfairly pilloried over their position on university tuition fees since 2010. The fact is that Labour had commissioned a report on the matter whilst still in power, and given the explosion in numbers attending university (post Blair) it was inevitable that tuition fees would have be charged.

Politics nowadays is so fast moving that promises made today could be obsolete or untenable by this time next week. Maybe if we cut politicians of all persuasions a little slack they wouldn't be darting around at high speed trying to respond to media pressure.

To quote Harold Wilson again, "a week is a long time in politics."
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