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Old 2nd February 2017
Harold Gough Harold Gough is offline
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Re: The Peugeot Diesel Pollutant Saga

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Originally Posted by steverh View Post
No, but I liked the relaxed style of driving without lots of gear changing (never been one for automatics).
That reminds me: Second gear in the Peugeot is almost redundant. It doesn't like it in very slow traffic and third copes very well at slightly higher speeds.

Harold
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Old 2nd February 2017
Harold Gough Harold Gough is offline
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Re: The Peugeot Diesel Pollutant Saga

Thanks for the replies, everyone.

I don't buy the 9,000 (or whatever) mpa, but I do accept that a reasonable proportion of journeys of a few miles at motorway speeds seems to be a good management regime.

I will just have to find a second regular pub, this one at a suitable distance from home. It's a nuisance but it has to be done.

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Old 2nd February 2017
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Re: The Peugeot Diesel Pollutant Saga

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1. The sort of pollutants that diesels emit are no longer acceptable if you live and mainly drive in an urban environment, as I do.
This is true, but diesel is much safer as a fuel owing to its much higher flashpoint and lower flammability.

I certainly wouldn't want to keep a petrol powered vehicle in an integral garage!

I also remain unconvinced by the particulate argument, as the amount of particulate matter that escapes from DPF systems is minute. The exhaust tailpipes on my last car (a V6 diesel) were as clean as the day I bought it after about 85,000 miles. Particulate matter reported at every MOT test was 'zero'.

I suspect the problems relate to the large number of older diesel vehicles that were never fitted with DPF systems, and the small number of irresponsible owners who remove the DPF and other emissions control equipment from newer vehicles.

Every now and again one sees older and/or poorly maintained diesel vehicles (usually clapped out Ford Mondeos and Transit vans) belching out clouds of smoke. These probably cause more pollution than several thousand properly maintained vehicles with DPF systems working properly.
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Old 2nd February 2017
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Re: The Peugeot Diesel Pollutant Saga

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Thanks Nigel.

I almost never travel in nose to tail traffic. About half my journeys would be at 30mph and half at 50-60mph. None of there are long. In the warmer months I would have a few longer (10 miles+EW) trips at the higher speeds.

Harold
That could be your problem. DPF systems do need to be driven at sustained speeds of 30 MPH or more for three or four miles to regenerate properly.

They are also programmed not to regenerate until the engine has reached 'normal' operating temperature.

The fact is that diesel engines are very efficient, and so are slow to warm up. I have no idea how long my present car takes to warm up as JLR no longer thinks it necessary to fit temperature gauges, (these are known in the trade as 'comfort gauges'), but my last car could take ten miles to reach 90 C in the winter, even with the benefit of the little oil central heating boiler under the bonnet!

I therefore think it likely that your engine rarely reaches the necessary temperature for a DPF regeneration to be triggered.

It may be worthwhile contacting a local Terraclean agent to see whether he can clean your system out. It would almost certainly be cheaper than a new DPF or Peugeot repair service.
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Old 2nd February 2017
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Re: The Peugeot Diesel Pollutant Saga

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Originally Posted by Naughty Nigel View Post
This is true, but diesel is much safer as a fuel owing to its much higher flashpoint and lower flammability.

I certainly wouldn't want to keep a petrol powered vehicle in an integral garage!

I also remain unconvinced by the particulate argument, as the amount of particulate matter that escapes from DPF systems is minute. The exhaust tailpipes on my last car (a V6 diesel) were as clean as the day I bought it after about 85,000 miles. Particulate matter reported at every MOT test was 'zero'.

I suspect the problems relate to the large number of older diesel vehicles that were never fitted with DPF systems, and the small number of irresponsible owners who remove the DPF and other emissions control equipment from newer vehicles.

Every now and again one sees older and/or poorly maintained diesel vehicles (usually clapped out Ford Mondeos and Transit vans) belching out clouds of smoke. These probably cause more pollution than several thousand properly maintained vehicles with DPF systems working properly.
It's not just the particulates that are the problem. NOx emissions are as big a problem, if not bigger. NOx is a by-product of the high temperatures at which diesel engine combustion occurs due to N2 and O2 reacting together. It needs removing via a reduction process (converting the NOx back to N2). There are two types of cat to do this - one of which needs Adblu, the other doesn't. The Adblu approach is the more reliable, but at the cost of needing another reservoir to be filled. Unlike Eolys, Adblu is (should be!) fairly cheap.

In either case, the writing is on the wall for diesels. The manufacturers are moving back to efficient petrol engines, often as part of an electric hybrid system. I suspect by 2025 there will be a lot of pure electric cars on the road too. Diesel is dead in the long term for passenger cars.
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  #21  
Old 2nd February 2017
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Re: The Peugeot Diesel Pollutant Saga

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Originally Posted by Naughty Nigel View Post

I also remain unconvinced by the particulate argument, as the amount of particulate matter that escapes from DPF systems is minute. The exhaust tailpipes on my last car (a V6 diesel) were as clean as the day I bought it after about 85,000 miles. Particulate matter reported at every MOT test was 'zero'.
The real problem is the intense and extensive urbanisation of our cities and larger towns. Where you get constant stationary queues for traffic alongside cyclists and pedestrians there will be serious effects on health. Even so, I doubt if the damage is anything like the smoke-filled rooms (pubs, restaurants, socila centres, etc.) of a few decades ago.

As for proposed legilation, I found this recently:

Stationary idling is an offence under section 42 of the Road Traffic Act 1988.

The Act enforces rule 123 of the Highway Code which states: "You must not leave a vehicle engine running unnecessarily while that vehicle is stationary on a public road."

And doing this can incur a 20 fixed-penalty fine under the Road Traffic (Vehicle Emissions) Regulations 2002. This goes up to 40 if unpaid within a given time frame.

Of course, it doesn't mean you've got to cut your engine at every red light: you are allowed to leave your engine running if you're stationary in traffic or diagnosing faults".

Harold
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Re: The Peugeot Diesel Pollutant Saga

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Add Blue is a sticky material which improves the efficiency of the filtration process.
I don't think that's right Nigel. Adblu is urea and it's used as part of selective catalytic reduction process in the exhaust system:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Select...ytic_reduction
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Old 2nd February 2017
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Re: The Peugeot Diesel Pollutant Saga

I had a diesel for two years, covered about 17000 miles, and never had a DPF warning. I live in a rural area so most journeys are plenty long enough to warm the car up properly. However, a year ago I changed to a petrol version of the same model because I thought it likely that time would be called on diesel cars and I wanted shot of it while it was still worth something! The petrol costs a bit more on fuel but is a much more refined vehicle and I don't regret the change. Sorry to hear of your woes Harold, I hope it's sorted quickly and without too much expense.
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Old 2nd February 2017
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Re: The Peugeot Diesel Pollutant Saga

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Originally Posted by Naughty Nigel View Post
That could be your problem. DPF systems do need to be driven at sustained speeds of 30 MPH or more for three or four miles to regenerate properly.

They are also programmed not to regenerate until the engine has reached 'normal' operating temperature.

The fact is that diesel engines are very efficient, and so are slow to warm up. I have no idea how long my present car takes to warm up as JLR no longer thinks it necessary to fit temperature gauges, (these are known in the trade as 'comfort gauges'), but my last car could take ten miles to reach 90 C in the winter, even with the benefit of the little oil central heating boiler under the bonnet!

I therefore think it likely that your engine rarely reaches the necessary temperature for a DPF regeneration to be triggered.

It may be worthwhile contacting a local Terraclean agent to see whether he can clean your system out. It would almost certainly be cheaper than a new DPF or Peugeot repair service.
Nigel,

That's interesting. 30mph for 3-4 miles is much different from the 50-60mph for 25 minutes I have seen elsewhere.

The slow warm-up is certainly the case. I have to drive at least 2 miles at town traffic speeds for any air warm enough to improve comfort is available, although about half the distance will clear the inside of the screen. In this model they fitted some addition heating system for the drivers from 2008 onwards. The engine has to be at normal operating temperature for the MOT!

I can't mess about looking around for cheaper options on this occasion. The Peugeot dealer will run the cycle when they have put the additive in. When they have sorted the obvious sensor problem I can make other arrangements in future, with due warning, hopefully not so close to the MOT expiry date.

Harold
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Old 2nd February 2017
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Re: The Peugeot Diesel Pollutant Saga

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Originally Posted by Otto View Post
I had a diesel for two years, covered about 17000 miles, and never had a DPF warning. I live in a rural area so most journeys are plenty long enough to warm the car up properly. However, a year ago I changed to a petrol version of the same model because I thought it likely that time would be called on diesel cars and I wanted shot of it while it was still worth something! The petrol costs a bit more on fuel but is a much more refined vehicle and I don't regret the change. Sorry to hear of your woes Harold, I hope it's sorted quickly and without too much expense.
Thanks, Otto.

I suppose it makes life interesting.

If I had no idea about how cars work it might be a different story.

Harold
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  #26  
Old 2nd February 2017
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Re: The Peugeot Diesel Pollutant Saga

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It's not just the particulates that are the problem. NOx emissions are as big a problem, if not bigger. NOx is a by-product of the high temperatures at which diesel engine combustion occurs due to N2 and O2 reacting together. It needs removing via a reduction process (converting the NOx back to N2). There are two types of cat to do this - one of which needs Adblu, the other doesn't. The Adblu approach is the more reliable, but at the cost of needing another reservoir to be filled. Unlike Eolys, Adblu is (should be!) fairly cheap.
The catalytic converters fitted to petrol engines do remove NOX, but at the cost of increased fuel consumption and significantly increased CO2 emissions.

I don't see electric propulsion as a realistic alternative as the entire electrical generation, distribution and storage system is grossly inefficient, and simply creates even more pollution 'somewhere else'. We are also told that we don't have sufficient generating capacity for our present needs, so how will the grid cope with charging millions of electric cars? How long before drivers of electric cars can't get to work because they couldn't charge their batteries overnight?

We really need to address this problem by finding ways to avoid travelling unnecessarily rather than simply moving the pollution footprint somewhere else.

The main polluters in towns and cities are commercial vehicles and buses. It might be a good idea to bring back trolley buses, but there is little practical alternative but to transport freight by diesel power.

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I don't think that's right Nigel. Adblu is urea and it's used as part of selective catalytic reduction process in the exhaust system:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Select...ytic_reduction
Yes, you are right. I was thinking of something else.

I gather Adblue is little more than refined urine!
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Old 2nd February 2017
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Re: The Peugeot Diesel Pollutant Saga

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I gather Adblue is little more than refined urine!
Otherwise known as 'The Royal Wee'?

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Re: The Peugeot Diesel Pollutant Saga

This BBC Documentary The Engine that Powers the-World may be of interest.
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Re: The Peugeot Diesel Pollutant Saga

I have just had a look at my current Owners' Manual, which provides the following advice.

Please note this is for a very low revving 3.0 litre diesel engine. Smaller engines may require a shorter regeneration time. The advice is also slightly different to my previous model.

DIESEL PARTICULATE FILTER (DPF)
Diesel vehicles equipped with a particle filter have more efficient emission control. The particles in the exhaust gases are collected in the filter during normal driving.

When a DPF message is displayed, accompanied by an amber warning lamp, the filter requires a regeneration cycle to clean itself. This requires the engine to have reached normal operating temperature. Regeneration takes place automatically at an interval of approximately 300-900 km (190-560 miles), depending on driving conditions. Regeneration normally takes 10-20 minutes and is automatically requested by the engine control module if the vehicle is driven steadily at vehicle speeds between 60 km/h to 112 km/h (40 mph to 70 mph). It is possible that the regeneration process will occur at lower vehicle speeds, but the events may take a little longer at a 50 km/h (30 mph) average speed.

Note: If regeneration is not successfully carried out, the amber warning lamp will eventually be replaced by a red warning lamp.

If a DPF message is displayed, accompanied by a red warning lamp, contact a Dealer/Authorised Repairer as soon as possible.


DRIVING SHORT DISTANCES OR IN COLD WEATHER
If the vehicle is frequently driven short distances or in cold weather conditions, then the engine may not reach normal operating temperature .This means that regeneration of the DPF does not take place and the filter is not efficiently cleaned. When the filter reaches a condition when a filter regeneration is appropriate and the current drive style is not appropriate, a warning triangle on the Instrument panel illuminates and the message DPF Full. See manual is displayed in the Message centre. This is not indicating a fault condition with the vehicle and no dealership support should be required. Start regeneration of the filter by driving the vehicle, preferably on a main road or motorway. The vehicle should then be driven for approximately 20 minutes or more.
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Re: The Peugeot Diesel Pollutant Saga

I too have a JLR vehicle which has the ford derived Euro IV diesel.

At cold engine temperatures the DPF will clog up more quickly and this gives rise to the maxim that a diesel engine is not for motorists who do a small annual milage. In fact if you just did 1000 miles per annum but did them all on a motorway on one day then there would be no issue. The "small annual milage" is shorhand for daily short journeys where the car does not reach normal operating temperature or at least does not reach normal operating temperature for a significant part of the journey. When the vehicle is at normal operating temperature the DPF wil still clog up but nowhere near as much (possibly to an insignificant amount but of course more miles will eventually lead to more clogging up), hence the need to have a high ratio of normal temperature driving to low temperature driving.

Once the DPF reaches a certain "clog" factor (based on back pressure I believe) it will go through a regeneration cycle where (as mentioned in a previous post) diesel fuel is injected into the cylinders to be passed through to the DPF where it will ignite. In so doing it will raise the temperature inside the DPF to such an extent that it wil burn off the sooty particulates clogging the DPF allowing it to breath freely again. This only happens when the engine is at normal temperature. During DPF regeneration the engine idle speed will rise, the underside of the car will get very hot, and you will smell the burning diesel. The DPF regeneration will run until the DPF is cleared or until a set time has passed without it being cleared (to prevent continuous regeneration). If you stop the vehicle before the DPF is cleared (or it stops itself) then another regeneration will be initiated once favourable conditions in the engine are reached again. Some diesel fuel will always seep past the piston rings and contaminate the oil, causing the oil level to rise (why some people never top up to the max mark). After a certain number of regenerations the oild will become seriously contaminated and must be changed. My vehicle counts the time under regeneration and then informs me that a service is due (in fact only an oil change is due). With a service interval of about 6000 miles it is a good idea to change the oil at half time and reset the service marker. If the vehicle is requiring frequent regenerations then the oil will need to be drained and changed more often; check the oil dip stick.

If the DPF becomes seriously blocked and the regular attempts at DPF regeneration can not clear it (maybe the engine isn't reaching temperature for long enough) then a warning light should come up. The handbook states that the vehicle should then be driven for at least 20 minutes above 40mph for another regeneration to kick in. If the DPF still isn't clearing then you will get a DPF blocked (or DPF Full) message and you need to take the vehicle in for specialised servicing or DPF replacement. The stipulation of 40mph is a bit disingenuous as its not speed per se but rpm and engine load. At 70mph in sixth gear my car is barely breaking sweat at 1800rpm. If the garage is trying to clear a DPF they will inject some cleaning additive directly into the DPF and run the engine at 3500 rpm - I had this done once. Long frequent sustained motorway driving is not a panacea to regeneration issues as my daily commute used to involve 40 miles of motorway each way (at 50 to 70 mph)!

It might be advisable when you take your car in to have them check the operation of the EGR valve. This allows the re-circulation of exhaust gases back into the inlet manifold so that they can be burnt for a second time and so reduce overall emmissions. This should close during regeneration (and when the engine is cold) as the re-circulated gases keep down engine temperature as they don't actually burn very well.
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