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Nostalgia Nexus - early and pre-digital discussion Want to discuss the really early days of digital and even film - here is the place for you.

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Old 17th February 2017
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Re: How not to choose a camera system.

In context: http://thephoblographer.us3.list-man...9&e=b8a5b56ba0
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Old 17th February 2017
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Re: How not to choose a camera system.

Over many years, I have owned good cameras, which have lasted for some time.

Since the first Olympus Digital purchase, an EPL1, I have fairly quickly risen to the EM1, via and EPL5 which broke down, an EM10 which I found a little small. EM1 (1) seems to tick most boxes.

A slight temptation to go for the Mk11, but pocket and brain says no.

My attitude is that when my photo skills are so good that I need a better tool, I will upgrade. But bear in mind technology does improve the kit.....

My 2p worth......
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Old 17th February 2017
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Re: How not to choose a camera system.

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Originally Posted by Ricoh View Post
I don't understand the sort of reasoning in that article at all. There are plenty similar ones about too. The argument seems to be that film allows you to do art better because it has limitations. That has to be wrong. If you want you to shoot without image review and do minimal post processing then that's 100% possible with digital too and you won't need to spend the money you need to on film and be subject to the risks and pitfalls that film brings.

Digital is far superior to film and while I do have a lovely OM1 that I use from time to time, it doesn't magically make me a better artist.
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Old 17th February 2017
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Re: How not to choose a camera system.

That's interesting. I extracted a slightly different message that I agree with. In the digital domain many photographers like to discuss the merits of one digital system compared to another and ultimately pixel peep to determine the better system (given the same settings, for example) whereas analogue photographers have little or no interest how their light box compares with another. When it comes to the different roll of sensors available, it's easy enough to try them yourself without switching camera systems. Let's face it, pixel peeping is a curse to photography especially discussions on such matter.
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Old 17th February 2017
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Re: How not to choose a camera system.

There was plenty of "system A is better than system B" in film days. When I joined a camera club in the 80's the senior members poo-pooed my Olympus kit and boasted about their Minoltas instead. Then I started winning their competitions . I always preferred Agfa materials to Kodak or Ilford and got laughed at for that, too. There used to be discussions about the graininess of film A vs film B, the superiority of MF vs 35mm etc etc. It's nothing new.

It was easy to change films without changing camera systems, certainly, but it was very difficult to keep changing ISO without at least two bodies! Pixel peeping is just another way for the male of the species (usually) to claim that "mine's better than yours", just like 0-60 times in cars. Meaningless in practice.

You can indeed use digital in the same way as film, concentrating on getting it right in camera, and doing that probably makes you consider the subject more closely before pressing the button rather than just taking dozens of photos on the basis that one will have worked. The trouble is that digital can make you lazy because you don't have to work at it at the taking stage.

As for art, especially in mono, imho a fine silver print will beat an inkjet any day. When properly illuminated the silver print glows. It's akin to the difference between water-colour and oil painting; as you increase the illumination the oil gains contrast as the dark areas stay dark while the light areas get brighter - and the same happens with a silver print. In the case of the water-colour, and the inkjet print, everything just gets lighter. If you don't believe me, try it!

For the best of both worlds I suppose you can output a digital file to a film writer or one of those machines that prints direct to photographic paper such as Ilford Galerie Digital. Meanwhile I have a vague itch to use up some of that ten-year-old Agfa APX25 I've got in the freezer before it becomes useless, and get back into the darkroom!
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Old 17th February 2017
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Re: How not to choose a camera system.

[QUOTE=greyhound;406840]On the subject of digital, my choice of system was Olympus 4/3rds so I invested in an E1 and over the years added various lenses and cameras. Then Olympus decided to ditch the system for Micro 4/3rds. I was so disgusted I decided not to go down that route.[/QUOTE]

I read your post with interest (Boots Beirette, Zenit EM/TTL Pentax film and then 4/3 Olympus. This point amongst it all resonated hard with me

As you can see from my signature I invested heavily in the 4/3 system and I felt quite the same. the day the E5 was launched and on the same day it was noted that there would be no more 4/3 cameras they lost my trust entirely (along with the 50% or more that my kit dropped in value the same day effectively locking me in)

I do want to upgrade as I would like to downsize my kit and also do video with the same kit rather than the separate kit I have to carry now, but I have twice now picked up the Em1.II and the lack of dedicated WB/ISO etc. buttons means I have to remember things I should not need to and I am still not sure that my trust has been gained back by Olympus which is why I am also heavily looking at the GH5 which I found much easier to use

Regards
Andy

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  #22  
Old 17th February 2017
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Re: How not to choose a camera system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pdk42 View Post
I don't understand the sort of reasoning in that article at all. There are plenty similar ones about too. The argument seems to be that film allows you to do art better because it has limitations. That has to be wrong. If you want you to shoot without image review and do minimal post processing then that's 100% possible with digital too and you won't need to spend the money you need to on film and be subject to the risks and pitfalls that film brings.

Digital is far superior to film and while I do have a lovely OM1 that I use from time to time, it doesn't magically make me a better artist.
I don't get the Lomography crowd who use film and seem to think that badly exposed, badly composed, unsharp photos with weird colours somehow makes an image a work of art.
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Old 17th February 2017
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Re: How not to choose a camera system.

I tell my students that any camera is a good camera. If you search Flickr for any camera there will be good (and bad) shots taken by each. That's not just modern cameras. Look at images shot 10 years ago and there were some amazing pictures shot then with cameras which are now considered obsolete.

Different cameras with different size sensors just look in the world in different ways. Every system has its advantages but also makes compromises. I don't prescribe to the belief that one is better than the other, they just work in different ways. Ask anyone who has invested money in a camera and ask which make is the best and that almost always say the one they own because they don't want to ever admit that something else is better and they made a mistake.

Did anyone see QI last week? There was a discussion about people who always buy products that are not going to succeed commercially. I bet these are the same people who think out of the box and innovatively and can see the advantages in Betamax, Laser Disks, Sinclair C5s and, dare I say it, Four Thirds where humdrum thinkers cannot. (I so wanted a c5 when I was young! )

I still shoot with, and make money from, my E-5. People like my pictures well enough to buy them. I think that they have a different look and feel to pictures taken with any other brand. I like that uniqueness. I don't want my pictures to be the same as everyone else's.

Furthermore, the E-5 fits my hands a treat and when people see my pictures they say 'You must have a really good camera!'

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  #24  
Old 17th February 2017
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Re: How not to choose a camera system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shenstone View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by greyhound View Post
On the subject of digital, my choice of system was Olympus 4/3rds so I invested in an E1 and over the years added various lenses and cameras. Then Olympus decided to ditch the system for Micro 4/3rds. I was so disgusted I decided not to go down that route.
I read your post with interest (Boots Beirette, Zenit EM/TTL Pentax film and then 4/3 Olympus. This point amongst it all resonated hard with me

As you can see from my signature I invested heavily in the 4/3 system and I felt quite the same. the day the E5 was launched and on the same day it was noted that there would be no more 4/3 cameras they lost my trust entirely (along with the 50% or more that my kit dropped in value the same day effectively locking me in)

I do want to upgrade as I would like to downsize my kit and also do video with the same kit rather than the separate kit I have to carry now, but I have twice now picked up the Em1.II and the lack of dedicated WB/ISO etc. buttons means I have to remember things I should not need to and I am still not sure that my trust has been gained back by Olympus which is why I am also heavily looking at the GH5 which I found much easier to use

Regards
Andy

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I understand why 4/3 users are upset about the demise of the system. However, it might have been worse as the Samsung NX story illustrates. The 4/3 system had lost in the battle of the DSLRs - Canon and Nikon (and even Sony/Minolta) had much more market share. The bodies were just as big as the market leaders, but the sensors were smaller and not competitive. Despite the superiority of the optics, as a system it was failing.

Adapting the format to the new niche of small mirrorless was a very sensible business decision and at least has given some life to 4/3 owners in being able to continue to use lenses, flashes etc. I think Olympus did try, to some degree, to cushion the blow when they launched the E-M1. It's not perfect, but as I said, it might have been worse.
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  #25  
Old 17th February 2017
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Re: How not to choose a camera system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricoh View Post
That's interesting. I extracted a slightly different message that I agree with. In the digital domain many photographers like to discuss the merits of one digital system compared to another and ultimately pixel peep to determine the better system (given the same settings, for example) whereas analogue photographers have little or no interest how their light box compares with another. When it comes to the different roll of sensors available, it's easy enough to try them yourself without switching camera systems. Let's face it, pixel peeping is a curse to photography especially discussions on such matter.
I agree about that pixel-peeking is a curse. I know because I've fallen guilty to it before (when I bought the A7Rii)! However, I really don't accept the premise that film makes you better. I wouldn't want to persuade anyone not to use it if it gives pleasure and satisfaction of course; but I sense that using film is becoming a sort of inverse snobbery thing. Because it's hard(er), it means you're more of a man when you can get decent images!

Of course, us oldies know how to get half-decent images from film so we can take a more detached view!
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Old 17th February 2017
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Re: How not to choose a camera system.

I read with some interest this article but wanted to avoid a fan boy approach.

My journey was initially trying to work out how to go about digital given all the kit that was available.

I started with Olympus film cameras and ended (very happily) with the OM2. However, digital was much more harder / complicated by the systems, sensor sizes which then reflected the size (and cost) of the lenses.

I succumbed to peer pressure and went Canon 6D and boy with L series lens the IQ was great ... BUT it was so big and heavy and unwieldy that I was too embarrassed to lug it anywhere, let alone get it out and start shooting!! Reminds so much of the Olympus Trip advert back in the day - Who do you think you are? David Bailey!

So I'd explored M4/3 - it took me some time to understand what it meant etc. Now having acquired my OMD5 with most of the available lenses, I've suddenly bought a Panasonic 12-32 (recently mentioned in a post on this forum) - why? I love M4/3 but I wanted something more compact still.

I think it is a journey we all make in pursuit of something not attainable as the landscape keeps changing, but the journey is quite enjoyable nethertheless
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Old 17th February 2017
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Re: How not to choose a camera system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pdk42 View Post
I understand why 4/3 users are upset about the demise of the system. However, it might have been worse as the Samsung NX story illustrates. The 4/3 system had lost in the battle of the DSLRs - Canon and Nikon (and even Sony/Minolta) had much more market share. The bodies were just as big as the market leaders, but the sensors were smaller and not competitive. Despite the superiority of the optics, as a system it was failing.

Adapting the format to the new niche of small mirrorless was a very sensible business decision and at least has given some life to 4/3 owners in being able to continue to use lenses, flashes etc. I think Olympus did try, to some degree, to cushion the blow when they launched the E-M1. It's not perfect, but as I said, it might have been worse.
I sympathise with Andy's view on the demise of 4/3. I loved the images from the E-1 (still do) and lusted after an E3 or E5 but couldn't afford one at the time. By the time I could, the EM-5 had changed everything. Panasonic make very decent cameras and of course the lenses will fit Oly bodies! Unlike Canikon, Sony etc...

There are plenty of used original EM-1's around at very good prices, worth a try maybe. It's so configurable that you can (relatively) easily set up dedicated ISO and WB buttons.
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Old 18th February 2017
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Re: How not to choose a camera system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pdk42 View Post
I agree about that pixel-peeking is a curse. I know because I've fallen guilty to it before (when I bought the A7Rii)! However, I really don't accept the premise that film makes you better. I wouldn't want to persuade anyone not to use it if it gives pleasure and satisfaction of course; but I sense that using film is becoming a sort of inverse snobbery thing. Because it's hard(er), it means you're more of a man when you can get decent images!

Of course, us oldies know how to get half-decent images from film so we can take a more detached view!
Hands up those Digial photographers who 'make' photographs in an iterative manner, shoot, chimp, refine, loop round 'n' times until happy.
Hands up those Analogue photographers who evaluate the scene considering all aspects, framing with regard to received wisdom on composition (remembering the entire negative is the frame, and bugger the rules) exposure DoF and maybe possibly shoot two extra frames allowing for exposure bracketing.

Also in digital, worrying about blowing highlights, knowing when they've gone they are well and truly gone. Compared to the analogue photographer, exposing for shadows, buggering the highlights knowing the 'S' response will allow for recovery. Knowing also the latitude of film and the (generally) increased DR cf digital.
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Old 18th February 2017
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Re: How not to choose a camera system.

Slide film is like digital inasmuch as you expose for the highlights, although if it's overexposed the highlights don't hit a brick wall as they do with digital! Slide film's dynamic range is rather less than digital's I would have thought, but black and white film probably has the biggest.
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Re: How not to choose a camera system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricoh View Post
Hands up those Digial photographers who 'make' photographs in an iterative manner, shoot, chimp, refine, loop round 'n' times until happy.
Hands up those Analogue photographers who evaluate the scene considering all aspects, framing with regard to received wisdom on composition (remembering the entire negative is the frame, and bugger the rules) exposure DoF and maybe possibly shoot two extra frames allowing for exposure bracketing.

Also in digital, worrying about blowing highlights, knowing when they've gone they are well and truly gone. Compared to the analogue photographer, exposing for shadows, buggering the highlights knowing the 'S' response will allow for recovery. Knowing also the latitude of film and the (generally) increased DR cf digital.
Pre-digital I almost always took colour slides. You only had one chance! No cropping so you had to get the composition right. And blown highlights were truly gone for ever. Pretty good training really!

I spoke to someone today who was using a Canon AE-1, I have not seen one of those for many years.
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