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View Poll Results: Are you getting fed up with Brexit and should we go back to discussing other things ?
YES - Close the thread 21 47.73%
NO - Keep the debate going on for eternity 23 52.27%
Voters: 44. You may not vote on this poll

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  #1561  
Old 11th October 2018
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

The Train from Spain is a blow for Remain

https://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...ory-sites.html


#Despite Brexit
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  #1562  
Old 11th October 2018
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

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The Train from Spain is a blow for Remain

https://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...ory-sites.html


#Despite Brexit
I couldn't get the page to load up, it said 'Bad Gateway'. But here is another railway story: UK to retain EU rail standards following Brexit published 5 October 2018.

https://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...tml?sword_list[]=Brexit&no_cache=1

I presume nothin, but it looks as though its content must be reassuring to both sides in the Brexit debate
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  #1563  
Old 11th October 2018
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

Page loaded for me just now, although it didn’t initially.
What to say, another example of an industry continuing to be sold out to foreign companies, Spain this time.
HS2 is another vast waste of money too, money that could be better spent elsewhere. Electrifying past Reading for example where they’ve had to stick Diesel engines into electric stock to be able to move past Reading (I think I’ve got that right, can’t really be arsed with the local news especially where it concerns railways - Southern Rail anyone)
Yet another example where the country is going to the dogs. Still Comrade Jeremy will sort it all. (Yeah, right)
  #1564  
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

https://youtu.be/2ozu5vflKug Despicable May
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  #1565  
Old 11th October 2018
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

This is a transcript of Ivan Rogers' recent Cambridge speech. Well with reading:

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&so...6ygu93ffAWZBPI

It's a long and hard read, but I think it really does fully explain the terrible mess we're now in.
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  #1566  
Old 11th October 2018
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

Thanks for the link its certainly a long read but worth it.

I love this statement by the Belgium PM

“They were in with a load of opt-outs. Now they are out and want a load of opt-ins”.
It is very true but there's nothing fundamentally wrong with that wish. It's called change.

Given Rogers' role as the UK's top bureaucrat in the EU he very neatly sums up where we are how we got here from his perspective. But he resigned, leaving others to try and work through the mess, which he helped create by not raising the issues he now talks about earlier.

The thing thats missing from his speech is a a way forward. He kind of says we should have remained but not quite, its all very complicated.

The EU has got to change whether we leave or not, but it refuses to. It has lost touch with the people as he says. I believe the best way forward would be for ALL to get behind the Government and make the best deal we can. but ............I really don't expect that to happen.

We need some strong leadership and belief in the UK not beaurocratic hand wringing.
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  #1567  
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

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Originally Posted by wornish View Post
Thanks for the link its certainly a long read but worth it.

I love this statement by the Belgium PM

“They were in with a load of opt-outs. Now they are out and want a load of opt-ins”.
It is very true but there's nothing fundamentally wrong with that wish. It's called change.

Given Rogers' role as the UK's top bureaucrat in the EU he very neatly sums up where we are how we got here from his perspective. But he resigned, leaving others to try and work through the mess, which he helped create by not raising the issues he now talks about earlier.

The thing thats missing from his speech is a a way forward. He kind of says we should have remained but not quite, its all very complicated.

The EU has got to change whether we leave or not, but it refuses to. It has lost touch with the people as he says. I believe the best way forward would be for ALL to get behind the Government and make the best deal we can. but ............I really don't expect that to happen.

We need some strong leadership and belief in the UK not beaurocratic hand wringing.
I think we're close to agreeing on something Dave!!

However, I'm not sure it's lack of belief in the UK that's at the core of our problems - it's lack of political leadership. And I'm not just talking about people with strong rhetoric and oratory skills - I'm talking about people who have the understanding, intellect and vision to get us through this. Leaver or remainer, I really fear for us at this juncture.
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  #1568  
Old 12th October 2018
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

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Originally Posted by TimP View Post
Page loaded for me just now, although it didnít initially.
What to say, another example of an industry continuing to be sold out to foreign companies, Spain this time.
HS2 is another vast waste of money too, money that could be better spent elsewhere. Electrifying past Reading for example where theyíve had to stick Diesel engines into electric stock to be able to move past Reading (I think Iíve got that right, canít really be arsed with the local news especially where it concerns railways - Southern Rail anyone)
Yet another example where the country is going to the dogs. Still Comrade Jeremy will sort it all. (Yeah, right)
In many ways HS2 is just trying to right the wrongs of 1963, and in some cases will be using the trackbeds of lines that were closed in 1963.

It is all very complex but the fact is that large parts of our rail network are at saturation point so something needs to be done. The railways are carrying more passengers now than ever, whilst road congestion and increasing fuel costs are likely to see yet more people take to the rails.

I am not convinced that HS2 is the answer, but having travelled extensively by rail in France and Italy our network is rather behind the times. That said, our stations are much better and more pleasant to use in my view. I also really dislike the Paris Metro.

Electrification is also a difficult one. The costs are massive for (in my view) very limited advantages. The question is, how far do you electrify lines?

There are some lines on the GWR, for instance, which I doubt could ever be electrified, and in any case there is not sufficient traffic to justify it, so diesel is the only answer. Currently the main long distance lines rely heavily on Class 43 (HST) stock, which is over 40 years old. These are being replaced with hybrid stock assembled by Hitachi in Newton Aycliffe which will run on diesel where overhead power is not available, but are limited to 100 MPH on diesel power.

Recent trials have also found that interference caused by the Hitachi train's overhead line equipment interferes with older signalling north of York so they will have to use diesel even though overhead lines have been installed since the 1990's. There are also frequent problems with the overhead lines on the ECML whenever there are strong winds, so only diesel power can be relied upon.

Meanwhile, the Class 43 stock is moving to Scotland and the 'West Country' (from Bristol TM I believe) where it will run in shortened formation. The Midland Mainline also looks set to use Class 43's for the foreseeable future.

In my view diesel power still remains the best choice for long distance services in the UK but it is becoming increasingly unfashionable.

However, many of the problems above come back to a lack of forward planning and foresight by successive governments who have told us all to use public transport but have not really planned for that eventuality. Call it a 'Just in Time' mentality if you like.
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  #1569  
Old 12th October 2018
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

Nigel, to address your question of how far do you electrify lines - surely you electrify the major hubs and run feeder services to and from them, so your main route from London via Reading, Bristol, Taunton, Exeter and Plymouth (maybe beyond, not that familiar with what lies further west!) gets ‘the juice’ and everything radiating from there doesn’t, unless there’s a major freight reason say ( do we even do freight anymore??)
  #1570  
Old 12th October 2018
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

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Nigel, to address your question of how far do you electrify lines - surely you electrify the major hubs and run feeder services to and from them, so your main route from London via Reading, Bristol, Taunton, Exeter and Plymouth (maybe beyond, not that familiar with what lies further west!) gets Ďthe juiceí and everything radiating from there doesnít, unless thereís a major freight reason say ( do we even do freight anymore??)
I doubt there would be a case for electrifying beyond Bristol TM. Electrifying to Plymouth would not be possible owing to the line running along the sea wall for several miles from Exeter St David's to Newton Abbot via Dawlish, (fantastic journey BTW). Network rail has enough problems keeping the line open through the winter as shown in the photograph below. Electrifying it, even if it were possible, would be far too dangerous.

Unfortunately the alternative lines running inland were closed in 1963.

But in any case, what advantage does electrification bring except to the busiest lines? The ECML is electrified to Edinburgh and Glasgow, but we cannot rely on trains to and from London in windy weather.



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  #1571  
Old 12th October 2018
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

In my view HS2 is a colossal waste of money. It's true that the existing main lines are full and more capacity is needed, but it should be provided with conventional lines as we have already. The speed advantage is small (as somebody put it, "has the PM actually met anyone who wants to arrive in Birmingham 20 minutes sooner?") and the lack of sufficient intermediate stations means HS2 will be available to a limited number of the population. Beeching's biggest mistake in my view was to rip up the Great Central main line which ran down the middle of the country and was built to a larger (continental?) loading gauge. HS2 largely follows the route of the GCML I believe.


Electrification means cleaner and more efficient trains but the overhead lines are ugly and expensive, and most of the diesel-powered stock we use at present is old and smelly . Even the relatively modern Class 66 locos don't meet current emissions legislation.
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

This photographs below perhaps better illustrate the challenges of using 25 KV overhead line electrification on the railway line through Dawlish and why it will never happen.




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  #1573  
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

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Electrification means cleaner and more efficient trains but the overhead lines are ugly and expensive, and most of the diesel-powered stock we use at present is old and smelly . Even the relatively modern Class 66 locos don't meet current emissions legislation.
The MTU powered Class 43's do meet current standards I believe. They are certainly very clean running and much cleaner than the old Paxman engines.

Class 66 is mainly used for freight and for rescuing stranded Class 91's (electric trains) on the ECML when the lines come down!

Electric trains may be cleaner and more efficient but what about the power stations that generate the electricity? If electricity is so clean, green and efficient why does it cost 5 x that of natural gas per KW/Hr?
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  #1574  
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

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Beeching's biggest mistake in my view was to rip up the Great Central main line which ran down the middle of the country and was built to a larger (continental?) loading gauge. HS2 largely follows the route of the GCML I believe.
There was the North Devon line too, which is sorely missed, but Marples wanted to build the M5.
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  #1575  
Old 12th October 2018
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

Quote:
Originally Posted by TimP View Post
Page loaded for me just now, although it didnít initially.
What to say, another example of an industry continuing to be sold out to foreign companies, Spain this time.
HS2 is another vast waste of money too, money that could be better spent elsewhere. Electrifying past Reading for example where theyíve had to stick Diesel engines into electric stock to be able to move past Reading (I think Iíve got that right, canít really be arsed with the local news especially where it concerns railways - Southern Rail anyone)
Yet another example where the country is going to the dogs. Still Comrade Jeremy will sort it all. (Yeah, right)
There's no such thing as a diesel is there, all diesel-electric.Any power transfer is inefficient. We might as well use electricty for trains. It's not as though there is any foreseable major increase in demand.
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