Olympus UK E-System User Group
Olympus UK E-System User Group

Join our unique resource for Olympus Four Thirds E-System DSLR and Pen Micro Four Thirds photographers. Show your images via our free e-group photo gallery. Please read the e-group.uk.net forum terms and conditions before posting for the first time. Above all, welcome!


Go Back   Olympus UK E-System User Group > Site news and information > Tutorials, Informative & Classic threads

Tutorials, Informative & Classic threads A new e-Group area for all the wonderful tutorials and helpful threads put on here by our members. Tutorials on using software, camera hardware - and feel free to request a tutorial if you need assistance!

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 7th February 2016
Paul19's Avatar
Paul19 Paul19 is offline
Full member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: In the mountains west of Sydney, Australia
Posts: 155
Thanks: 38
Thanked 20 Times in 16 Posts
Likes: 58
Liked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Same or different final prints?

I am trying to sort this out (and my head hurts).

Basically what is the difference between a Jpeg file straight from the camera and a Jpeg file from a RAW file?

Some background: If you take an image with camera set to RAW + Jpeg Large SF (super fine), you get 2 images.
Then you work on the RAW file so that it is the same colouring, hue, sharpness etc as that of the Jpeg from the camera.
To print them both you have to convert the worked on RAW file to a Jpeg (now a lossy file).
So now you have 2 Jpeg files.

When they are both printed, will there be any difference in the two prints???
__________________
Paul
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 7th February 2016
Ricoh Ricoh is offline
Full member
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Lancashire
Posts: 3,437
Thanks: 382
Thanked 294 Times in 264 Posts
Likes: 443
Liked 916 Times in 553 Posts
Re: Same or different final prints?

The difference is this: the JPEG SOO the camera is the manufacturer's interpretation, a conversion from the RAW file is your interpretation, your opportunity to impart some artistic input in the process.
__________________
Steve

on flickr
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 7th February 2016
PeterBirder's Avatar
PeterBirder PeterBirder is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: BRAINTREE ESSEX
Posts: 5,640
Thanks: 1,711
Thanked 979 Times in 819 Posts
Likes: 1,766
Liked 723 Times in 421 Posts
Re: Same or different final prints?

The object of using raw files and doing your own raw/JPEG conversion is usually to get a better (e.g. dealing with blown highlights, lifting detail from shadows etc. etc. ) or more to your liking image than that produced by the camera's processing engine. The camera's firmware can be considered as a "vanilla" or "one size fits all" raw converter and it is often possible to achieve a "better" final JPEG by making fuller use of the greater amount of data in the raw file before conversion to JPEG after which there is less data available to make correction/improvements. There seems little point in doing your own raw conversion simply to make the final image look like the camera JPEG. That said the Olympus camera JPEGs are probably about the best in the business and many folks are happy to always use them. It has long been my belief that Olympus Viewer software is effectively the same as the in camera raw converter and if you use OV without changing any of the default settings you will effectively have two identical JPEGs. Other raw conversion software will have different default settings and many (like Dxo Optics Pro that I use) have features to correct for lens distortion and deal with noise reduction and other abberations and correct for perspective distortion etc.etc. Take a look at the DxO page ( I only say this as I am familiar with this software others like Lightroom etc will give similar capability) here http://www.dxo.com/us/photography/ph.../dxo-opticspro to see what doing you own raw processing can achieve.

If you are happy with the results/can acheive any "improvement" you need by post processing in Photo shop etc from the camera JPEGs then by all means stick with that.

Remember that JPEG is primarily a compression format and the object is to reduce the amount of data needed for storage and transmission which happens to be lossy so just limits the possibilities for further adjustments which, when made have to be re-saved incuring further losses.

Regards.
__________________
Peter

she looked at me and said "It's official. I hate your camera. It's just so amazing and perfect I want one!"

E-M10 MK II, E-M5, E-PL1, E-PM2, mZ 12-50, mZ 14-42mm EZ, mZ 17mm f 1.8, mZ 25mm f1.8, mZ 45mm f1.8, mZ 75-300mm II.
OM1n, OM 50mm f1.8.
Oly Viewer3, Dxo Pro 11. FastStone.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 8th February 2016
Ross the fiddler's Avatar
Ross the fiddler Ross the fiddler is offline
Full member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Blue Mtns, NSW Australia
Posts: 10,435
Thanks: 1,677
Thanked 1,025 Times in 808 Posts
Likes: 3,481
Liked 1,096 Times in 687 Posts
Re: Same or different final prints?

If you save in camera LSF JPEG + RAW & then recreate another jpeg in OV3 from that RAW file you will only get a LF JPEG file (more compressed even though it is at High Quality setting) so that it might only be half the original file size because of that compression, but if I process it in Capture One (Pro 9) for example, then it may end up being a larger file. One image I did & from the camera at LSF it was 6.05MB, (RAW 13.78 MB) from OV3 set at High Quality it was 3.16 MB & when processed though CO9 it was 9.29 MB & with a lift of the shadows it came up to 10.94 MB.

I hope that helps. BTW, I highly recommend Capture One Pro 9 as a great RAW converter & editing program (much more & better than what you can get out of OV3).

__________________
Ross
I fiddle with violins (when I'm not fiddling with a camera).
Cameras: OM-D E-M1 & Mk II, Olympus Stylus 1, OM-D E-M5.
Lenses: M.ZD40-150mm f2.8 PRO Lens with MC-14, M.ZD12-50, M.ZD60 Macro, M.ZD75-300 Mk II, MMF-3, ZD14-54 II, ZD12-60 SWD, ZD50-200 SWD, EC14, EC20, EX25, Sigma 150mm F2.8 APO Macro DG HSM.
Flashes: FL36R X2, FL50R, FL50.
Software: Capture One Pro 10 (& Olympus Viewer 3).
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 8th February 2016
Imageryone Imageryone is offline
Full member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Suffolk,England
Posts: 4,930
Thanks: 1,109
Thanked 801 Times in 760 Posts
Likes: 656
Liked 560 Times in 335 Posts
Re: Same or different final prints?

Because of your own personal input on the RAW file, they should be different.
__________________
The picture tells the story, great when you have a bad memory.DW.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 8th February 2016
Graham_of_Rainham's Avatar
Graham_of_Rainham Graham_of_Rainham is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Rainham
Posts: 6,511
Thanks: 511
Thanked 783 Times in 589 Posts
Likes: 1,657
Liked 985 Times in 595 Posts
Re: Same or different final prints?

Some editors will let you print the RAW files directly to the printer. This gives you a higher bit image than th 8bit jpg. Gradients are far less likely to be banded and blocked out.
__________________
Graham

We often repeat the mistakes we most enjoy...
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 8th February 2016
Jim Ford Jim Ford is offline
Full member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Watford, Herts..
Posts: 4,418
Thanks: 172
Thanked 360 Times in 306 Posts
Likes: 1,002
Liked 537 Times in 363 Posts
Re: Same or different final prints?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham_of_Rainham View Post
Some editors will let you print the RAW files directly to the printer.
I'm not sure if that's what really happens - that is, the RAW data being sent directly to the printer without intermediate conversion.

A RAW file contains no colour information whatsoever. It is simply greyscale data. The colour information is determined by the processing software by interpreting the position of the pixels in relation to the overlying Bayer filter matrix (or something like that!)

Jim
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 8th February 2016
Graham_of_Rainham's Avatar
Graham_of_Rainham Graham_of_Rainham is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Rainham
Posts: 6,511
Thanks: 511
Thanked 783 Times in 589 Posts
Likes: 1,657
Liked 985 Times in 595 Posts
Re: Same or different final prints?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Ford View Post
I'm not sure if that's what really happens - that is, the RAW data being sent directly to the printer without intermediate conversion.

Jim
Quite right! What actually happens to the data from the RAW file, as it passes through all the various manipulations provided by hardware, firmware & software, in the computer and the printer, is something of a mystery to virtually all of us.

But the bit depth of the RAW file, whatever that is, provides for a greater range when printed than the jpg file will. I see many printed and projected images that have clearly visible banding in the sky & blocking in shadow areas, which almost invariably is coming from the use of 8bit jpg files.
__________________
Graham

We often repeat the mistakes we most enjoy...
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 8th February 2016
Paul19's Avatar
Paul19 Paul19 is offline
Full member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: In the mountains west of Sydney, Australia
Posts: 155
Thanks: 38
Thanked 20 Times in 16 Posts
Likes: 58
Liked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Re: Same or different final prints?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham_of_Rainham View Post

But the bit depth of the RAW file, whatever that is, provides for a greater range when printed than the jpg file will. I see many printed and projected images that have clearly visible banding in the sky & blocking in shadow areas, which almost invariably is coming from the use of 8bit jpg files.
I know I am thick, but how many bits does a jpeg file have once it is converted into Jpeg from RAW ready for printing?
__________________
Paul
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 9th February 2016
Otto's Avatar
Otto Otto is offline
Full member
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: North Yorkshire
Posts: 938
Thanks: 51
Thanked 110 Times in 103 Posts
Likes: 268
Liked 179 Times in 121 Posts
Re: Same or different final prints?

JPEGs are always 8 bits. I use 16 bit TIFF to preserve maximum quality from a converted raw file.
__________________
Regards
Richard
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 9th February 2016
PeterBirder's Avatar
PeterBirder PeterBirder is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: BRAINTREE ESSEX
Posts: 5,640
Thanks: 1,711
Thanked 979 Times in 819 Posts
Likes: 1,766
Liked 723 Times in 421 Posts
Re: Same or different final prints?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul19 View Post
I know I am thick, but how many bits does a jpeg file have once it is converted into Jpeg from RAW ready for printing?
The answer to that is like the answer to the old question "how long is a peice of string", as long as you want it to be.

JPEG is a coded/compressed data stream, the total amount of data/number of bits depends on what you want/need and is changed by adjusting the amount of compression you have set. (Actually the theoretical limit of the standard is an image of 65,535 X 65,535 pixels ie. 4 Giga pixels but that won't affect us.) Remember also that to actually display/print an image from a JPEG the computer/printer has to de-compress the image again using its own software.

Graham is talking about the "bit depth" which is the number of bits used for each pixel which for JPEG is 8. By comparison an Olympus raw file (ORF) has 12 or 14 bits per pixel so contains much finer data detail.

If you really want to know more about JPEGs you could look at this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JPEG but that would really give you a headache.

Regards.
__________________
Peter

she looked at me and said "It's official. I hate your camera. It's just so amazing and perfect I want one!"

E-M10 MK II, E-M5, E-PL1, E-PM2, mZ 12-50, mZ 14-42mm EZ, mZ 17mm f 1.8, mZ 25mm f1.8, mZ 45mm f1.8, mZ 75-300mm II.
OM1n, OM 50mm f1.8.
Oly Viewer3, Dxo Pro 11. FastStone.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Liked This Post:
Graham_of_Rainham (10th February 2016)
  #12  
Old 9th February 2016
Paul19's Avatar
Paul19 Paul19 is offline
Full member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: In the mountains west of Sydney, Australia
Posts: 155
Thanks: 38
Thanked 20 Times in 16 Posts
Likes: 58
Liked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Re: Same or different final prints?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterBirder View Post


If you really want to know more about JPEGs you could look at this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JPEG but that would really give you a headache.

Regards.
Thanks, OUCH!
__________________
Paul
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 9th February 2016
Paul19's Avatar
Paul19 Paul19 is offline
Full member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: In the mountains west of Sydney, Australia
Posts: 155
Thanks: 38
Thanked 20 Times in 16 Posts
Likes: 58
Liked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Re: Same or different final prints?

Thanks everyone for your replies and information.
I think I now know the answer, but it has not been stated.
So, for an answer to my original question, in the following summary can it be answered as yes' or 'no'?

A) * I take a photo with RAW + Jpeg SFN
* without looking at the Jpeg I use the RAW image to work on (because it has all the detail the camera gathered and it isn't lossy)
* I manipulate the image to make it mine.
* As I want to print my masterpiece I now save it as a Jpeg

B) * In the meantime the camera also had the RAW image in its engine
* The camera looked at any parameters I had set (e.g. Picture Mode, contrast, gradation, sharpness, saturation)
* with my presets (and any the camera also adds) the camera makes a Jpeg image

C) * I now have my Jpeg from RAW and Jpeg from camera
* I compare them, and...Can it be?? both images are identical!!
* I print them both
* So the QUESTION is, "Will the two printed images look the same?"
__________________
Paul
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 10th February 2016
Ross the fiddler's Avatar
Ross the fiddler Ross the fiddler is offline
Full member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Blue Mtns, NSW Australia
Posts: 10,435
Thanks: 1,677
Thanked 1,025 Times in 808 Posts
Likes: 3,481
Liked 1,096 Times in 687 Posts
Re: Same or different final prints?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul19 View Post
Thanks everyone for your replies and information.
I think I now know the answer, but it has not been stated.
So, for an answer to my original question, in the following summary can it be answered as yes' or 'no'?

A) * I take a photo with RAW + Jpeg SFN
* without looking at the Jpeg I use the RAW image to work on (because it has all the detail the camera gathered and it isn't lossy)
* I manipulate the image to make it mine.
* As I want to print my masterpiece I now save it as a Jpeg

B) * In the meantime the camera also had the RAW image in its engine
* The camera looked at any parameters I had set (e.g. Picture Mode, contrast, gradation, sharpness, saturation)
* with my presets (and any the camera also adds) the camera makes a Jpeg image

C) * I now have my Jpeg from RAW and Jpeg from camera
* I compare them, and...Can it be?? both images are identical!!
* I print them both
* So the QUESTION is, "Will the two printed images look the same?"
My answer to that would be, if you process the RAW file in OV3 then the JPEG will be more compressed (even at the highest setting JPEG) than the JPEG from the camera set at LSF & if printed large you might see the steps in the colour graduation more than you might from the (LSF) JPEG from the camera. Subjects like portraits or sky shots may be more obvious. If you process the RAW file in a more advanced editing software then that may be different depending on the output settings, but.....
Keep in mind what Graham has said about printing from RAW.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham_of_Rainham View Post
Quite right! What actually happens to the data from the RAW file, as it passes through all the various manipulations provided by hardware, firmware & software, in the computer and the printer, is something of a mystery to virtually all of us.

But the bit depth of the RAW file, whatever that is, provides for a greater range when printed than the jpg file will. I see many printed and projected images that have clearly visible banding in the sky & blocking in shadow areas, which almost invariably is coming from the use of 8bit jpg files.
__________________
Ross
I fiddle with violins (when I'm not fiddling with a camera).
Cameras: OM-D E-M1 & Mk II, Olympus Stylus 1, OM-D E-M5.
Lenses: M.ZD40-150mm f2.8 PRO Lens with MC-14, M.ZD12-50, M.ZD60 Macro, M.ZD75-300 Mk II, MMF-3, ZD14-54 II, ZD12-60 SWD, ZD50-200 SWD, EC14, EC20, EX25, Sigma 150mm F2.8 APO Macro DG HSM.
Flashes: FL36R X2, FL50R, FL50.
Software: Capture One Pro 10 (& Olympus Viewer 3).
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 10th February 2016
Paul19's Avatar
Paul19 Paul19 is offline
Full member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: In the mountains west of Sydney, Australia
Posts: 155
Thanks: 38
Thanked 20 Times in 16 Posts
Likes: 58
Liked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Re: Same or different final prints?

Thanks Ross, BUT you confuse me quoting Graham as it is an 8 bit jpeg file (from RAW) that is finally printed???
__________________
Paul
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
copying old prints Homer Simpson The lounge 7 3rd March 2014 09:51 AM
Canvas prints nickg The lounge 2 5th December 2011 03:16 PM
Size of prints The Technician The lounge 7 1st December 2010 04:24 PM
A0 digital prints PeterG Olympus E-3 3 13th March 2009 12:03 AM
Prints Question Scapula Memory Software 3 3rd March 2008 04:58 PM


All times are GMT. The time now is 06:24 PM.


© The Write Technology Ltd, 2007-2015, All rights reservedAd Management plugin by RedTyger