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  #46  
Old 16th February 2019
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Re: My latest foray into FF mirrorless - and why I'm sticking with m43

Having just, last week, upgraded my Oly 12-40 to 12-100 I have no regrets. I'm committed to M4/3.

But I'm still eying up the Z6...to play around with....there's very-very nice.

I came across this, subjective I know, but pretty good results, one must agree.
https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4366741

From what I've read, the 24-70 S f4 kit lens is excellent.

Panamoz...2025 inc lens.

An Oly M1X would set be back 2800, but I don't really think it's for me... great big expensive lump of a thing.
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  #47  
Old 16th February 2019
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Re: My latest foray into FF mirrorless - and why I'm sticking with m43

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave in Wales View Post
Having just, last week, upgraded my Oly 12-40 to 12-100 I have no regrets. I'm committed to M4/3.

But I'm still eying up the Z6...to play around with....there's very-very nice.

I came across this, subjective I know, but pretty good results, one must agree.
https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4366741

From what I've read, the 24-70 S f4 kit lens is excellent.

Panamoz...2025 inc lens.

An Oly M1X would set be back 2800, but I don't really think it's for me... great big expensive lump of a thing.
I have zilch interest in going FF. I make the most out of what I have. How do you find the 12-100 compared to the 12-40? I just have the latter but the former is nagging away at me.....
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  #48  
Old 16th February 2019
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Re: My latest foray into FF mirrorless - and why I'm sticking with m43

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Originally Posted by benvendetta View Post
How do you find the 12-100 compared to the 12-40? I just have the latter but the former is nagging away at me.....
Image quality wise, difficult to pick one ahead of the other to be honest.
Then there are the obvious benefits to both. Lighter, faster-v-more flexible (heavier).
I kept my 12-40 when I added the 12-100 for that reason and also that it's a superb 'little' zoom.
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  #49  
Old 17th February 2019
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Re: My latest foray into FF mirrorless - and why I'm sticking with m43

I agree - I think Huw's comment sums up the pros and cons perfectly.

John
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  #50  
Old 17th February 2019
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Re: My latest foray into FF mirrorless - and why I'm sticking with m43

Sync IS on the 12-100 adds about an extra stop or so of stabilisation. I've done 8s hand held on the EM1.2 with it. Definitely an excellent lens for landscape.
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  #51  
Old 21st February 2019
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Re: My latest foray into FF mirrorless - and why I'm sticking with m43

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Originally Posted by Beagletorque View Post
It's hard to be satisfied with what you have in our consumerist society, even if it is the best available!
Yes indeed; although if you use your camera for your business, as I do, you take the view that if it does the job and doesn't waste time (by far our most precious commodity) then there is no need to change anything.

If only consumers took the same view.
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  #52  
Old 21st February 2019
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Re: My latest foray into FF mirrorless - and why I'm sticking with m43

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Originally Posted by Naughty Nigel View Post
Yes indeed; although if you use your camera for your business, as I do, you take the view that if it does the job and doesn't waste time (by far our most precious commodity) then there is no need to change anything.

If only consumers took the same view.
You’re correct in all rationality, Nigel, but if they did in all areas of life the whole of capitalist society would collapse. Commerce has learned by a process of aggressive natural selection how to sow invasive seeds of the Acquisition Syndromes in every consumer!

An alien visitor might slap their head with amazement at peoples’ rants over 20/24Mp,1 or 2 card slots, and similar objectively almost-irrelevant rubbish! Every mid and upper-range camera on the market is already vastly more capable than 99% of the people who buy them (Including me) and we fool ourselves if we think they’ll make us better photographers.

Spend it on workshops and shooting opportunities is my advice.

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  #53  
Old 21st February 2019
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Re: My latest foray into FF mirrorless - and why I'm sticking with m43

At the weekend I overheard a Canon user pontificating to his friend that his new phone had 63 megapixels and an ISO of up to 100,000 so could take pictures of black cats in coal mines and was as good as his DSLR. His friend was unimpressed and carried on with his compact camera! Later the same guy explained that the recently restored N.E.R. electric autocar at the Embsay and Bolton Abbey Railway was all electric and ran on batteries. Nope, it is diesel-electric (it originally had a petrol engine but this now contravenes safety regulations).

Both of them ignored my Pen-F .
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  #54  
Old 21st February 2019
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Re: My latest foray into FF mirrorless - and why I'm sticking with m43

Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto View Post
At the weekend I overheard a Canon user pontificating to his friend that his new phone had 63 megapixels and an ISO of up to 100,000 so could take pictures of black cats in coal mines and was as good as his DSLR. His friend was unimpressed and carried on with his compact camera! Later the same guy explained that the recently restored N.E.R. electric autocar at the Embsay and Bolton Abbey Railway was all electric and ran on batteries. Nope, it is diesel-electric (it originally had a petrol engine but this now contravenes safety regulations).

Both of them ignored my Pen-F .
If you're after attention, try carrying a film camera. The number of times I've been stopped by individually remarking, 'wow, film! - I'm waiting for someone to ask can you still get film as I have a rehearsed answer telling them I make my own in darkness under the stairs, in the dead of night. The fact that I can turn lead into gold is a private matter which I keep to myself. It could lead to world-wide economic instability if the word got out.
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  #55  
Old 21st February 2019
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Re: My latest foray into FF mirrorless - and why I'm sticking with m43

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave in Wales View Post
Having just, last week, upgraded my Oly 12-40 to 12-100 I have no regrets. I'm committed to M4/3.

But I'm still eying up the Z6...to play around with....there's very-very nice.

I came across this, subjective I know, but pretty good results, one must agree.
https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4366741

From what I've read, the 24-70 S f4 kit lens is excellent.

Panamoz...2025 inc lens.

An Oly M1X would set be back 2800, but I don't really think it's for me... great big expensive lump of a thing.
It's not all goodness Dave. Look at this post I did over on Nikoncafe:

https://www.nikoncafe.com/threads/z6-banding.314714/
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  #56  
Old 21st February 2019
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Re: My latest foray into FF mirrorless - and why I'm sticking with m43

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Originally Posted by drmarkf View Post
You’re correct in all rationality, Nigel, but if they did in all areas of life the whole of capitalist society would collapse. Commerce has learned by a process of aggressive natural selection how to sow invasive seeds of the Acquisition Syndromes in every consumer!

Spend it on workshops and shooting opportunities is my advice.

Firstly I would like to thank Paul for a useful and fascinating post, and especially for pointing out the blindingly obvious; that it is possible to 'dodge and burn'' at the exposure stage when taking long exposures!

Many of us are susceptible to 'Acquisition Syndromes', but in the case of photography I often feel the biggest mistake is to believe that one camera system will do everything that we want, and do it well.

I am happily using my OM-D E-M1 Mk1, usually with the 12 ~ 40 mm zoom attached. I also have my trusty OM-D E-M5 as a backup. These are good cameras, and are as good now as they were when they were launched. They are also significantly better than almost any digital camera that was available ten or twelve years ago and are reasonably fool proof.

But like any camera system there have to be compromises; whether that be weight, size or convenience. I have deliberately omitted cost because that is an artificial value which has no direct correlation with image quality or overall performance.

As such my OM-D's are perfectly good for 99% of my needs and are my go-to cameras for work or days out. They are good enough for most landscape work, but somehow I don't enjoy using them for serious landscapes, and much prefer to use medium format. If I need high-resolution 'definitive' images for work I will also use medium format - choosing FP4+, Provia 100F or Ektar 100 as required.

For me one of the greatest benefits of the OM-D system is the electronic viewfinder, but this is also a weakness; especially for fast moving subjects such as motorsport or damselflies. For these I find my OM4Ti is a much better choice!

Clearly, if I was a professional sports or wildlife photographer I would chose something different such as a Nikon D5 or D500, but that might not be so good for landscapes.

I fully realise that I have swapped one 'Acquisition Syndrome' for another, but my point is that for most of us it is better to acquire two or three different systems than to simply keep upgrading the same system every time a new body or lens is released.
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  #57  
Old 21st February 2019
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Re: My latest foray into FF mirrorless - and why I'm sticking with m43

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Originally Posted by Ricoh View Post
If you're after attention, try carrying a film camera.

I wasn't seeking attention, far from it. However I did take the Pen-F to Claymills pumping station near Burton on Trent a while back and somebody asked me if it was a film camera as it looked so vintage! Claymills is a great place to visit if you like steam engines.

On a number of occasions when I have been out with one of my film cameras I've been asked whether you can still get film, and the expressions of amazement when I reply that of course you can are extraordinary.
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  #58  
Old 21st February 2019
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Re: My latest foray into FF mirrorless - and why I'm sticking with m43

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Originally Posted by Ricoh View Post
If you're after attention, try carrying a film camera. The number of times I've been stopped by individually remarking, 'wow, film! - I'm waiting for someone to ask can you still get film as I have a rehearsed answer telling them I make my own in darkness under the stairs, in the dead of night. The fact that I can turn lead into gold is a private matter which I keep to myself. It could lead to world-wide economic instability if the word got out.
I put some scanned images on FaceBook a few weeks ago and received several compliments about the quality. One was even chosen as the Page Profile Pic or whatever they call it on FB.

The fact that these were taken on film created a lot of interest and positive comments. Railway buffs excepted, I sometimes think people need to be reminded how good some older technologies are if they are used properly.

Film is far to inconvenient to ever rival digital again, but the IQ achievable with some current emulsions is stunning.
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  #59  
Old 21st February 2019
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Re: My latest foray into FF mirrorless - and why I'm sticking with m43

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Originally Posted by Naughty Nigel View Post
I put some scanned images on FaceBook a few weeks ago and received several compliments about the quality. One was even chosen as the Page Profile Pic or whatever they call it on FB.

The fact that these were taken on film created a lot of interest and positive comments. Railway buffs excepted, I sometimes think people need to be reminded how good some older technologies are if they are used properly.

Film is far to inconvenient to ever rival digital again, but the IQ achievable with some current emulsions is stunning.
Simply that, it's too inconvenient for most people living in the age of consumerism. "I want it, and I want it now" is the cry. Followed by "Its broken, so I'll buy another"
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  #60  
Old 21st February 2019
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Re: My latest foray into FF mirrorless - and why I'm sticking with m43

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Originally Posted by Naughty Nigel View Post
... my point is that for most of us it is better to acquire two or three different systems than to simply keep upgrading the same system every time a new body or lens is released.
I've tried running different systems (in the digital age), but it doesn't work for me. Having a choice makes me dither as to which to take and then causes angst later when I wish I'd taken the other. Taking both is madness of course! So, I'm living with m43 and making it work for me.

Since I do a lot of landscapes I often think that FF is a more obvious choice, but the truth is that m43 can work perfectly well for landscape. The smaller size of the kit is an obvious point, but I don't think it should be treated as a compromise point that necessarily leads to poorer IQ in any practical sense. At base ISO the IQ is pretty darned close and will not result in a poorer final image unless you start doing a lot of cropping or severe shadow lifting. In fact, even shadows +100 in LR is usually acceptable unless there is a lot of detail that you really want to reveal. The fact that there are so many excellent lenses in m43 means that good technique on an m43 camera will yield results that no one would complain about even on a large print.

Throw in the class-leading image stabilisation of m43 and I have a platform that can do things many others can't. So, I can positively state that owning a Z6 or an A7Riii or whatever would not help me to make better images - and in some areas would compromise it.

However, if you want to go the extra mile on noise, then stacking is the way to go. Stack even 4 raws and you'll reduce the ISO by 4 stops - 3200 becomes 200. Stack 8 and ISO 6400 becomes ISO 25. In this way m43 can level and then exceed the IQ difference to FF.

In fact, stacking really is the future so far as I'm concerned. This is why I'm eagerly anticipating the E-M5iii. I'm really hoping that it will do hand held hi-res (since actually that's just a stacking technique). If it can, then I can see it replacing my E-M1ii. HHHR not only increases resolution, but it also reduces noise - quite significantly in fact (by a factor of 2^n where n is the number of images). EDIT - Oops, it reduces by 2*n, not 2^n. Silly me!

This post I did on the E-M1x clearly shows this. I often stack now, but it's extra time in post processing and extra space on the hard drive. HHHR produces a single raw file (well, two actually, a regular lo-res one and a hi-res one) so it's a good solution.

For me, the one area where m43 compromises me is taking shots of people in indoor ambient light. In this case neither stacking nor IS will help - I need all the ISO performance I can get. I occasionally get close to buying a Sony RX1Rii - but it's crazy money and has terrible battery life.

So, my GAS list is still there alas - E-M5iii (if it has HHHR) and maybe an RX1Rii.
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