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View Poll Results: Are you getting fed up with Brexit and should we go back to discussing other things ?
YES - Close the thread 21 47.73%
NO - Keep the debate going on for eternity 23 52.27%
Voters: 44. You may not vote on this poll

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  #241  
Old 28th February 2018
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

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Originally Posted by Johnheatingman View Post
Monkeys ? John
Thanks John, I've been tossing and turning trying to get to sleep for months on end, wondering where I had seen BJ?

With your insightful post, the 1/2 farthing dropped... Monkey World.
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  #242  
Old 28th February 2018
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

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Originally Posted by Johnheatingman View Post
Agreed wholeheartedly ! A fact which begs the question whether we should have held a referendum in the first place. The average member of the British electorate will never be privy to all the intricate factors involved and with all the lies and deceit spouted on both political sides, press and media, an informed opinion was never an option.

Unlike many on here, I don't pretend to have the answer but we have held a referendum and in my opinion, as a supposedly democratic society, the result should stand. If the vote had been to remain, I would still hold the same opinion.

John
Democracy is only worth anything if accurate information is freely available, enabling the electorate to make an informed choice. As things stand, there is a very real danger that if the muddle that is Brexit is allowed to continue unchecked we will end up with a situation in which neither Leavers or Remainers achieve what they actually want, in fact nobody wants.

Whilst we are on the subject of referendums, it seems to me there are no guidelines or safeguards to ensure the question put to the electorate is appropriately worded. In this country referendums don't happen very often and when they do it is invariably a key event, which will determine the future success of our nation for generations. At the very least, surely the wording of the question should be debated and voted upon in Parliament?
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  #243  
Old 28th February 2018
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

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Whilst we are on the subject of referendums, it seems to me there are no guidelines or safeguards to ensure the question put to the electorate is appropriately worded. In this country referendums don't happen very often and when they do it is invariably a key event, which will determine the future success of our nation for generations. At the very least, surely the wording of the question should be debated and voted upon in Parliament?

I seem to remember that to have the referendum was actually voted on in parliament and won by a big majority. I think (not certain) that the wording was debated as part of that vote.
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  #244  
Old 28th February 2018
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

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Agreed again John. I am nowhere near as politically minded or knowledgeable on the subject of politics as some on the forum appear to be and I have never claimed to be.

I do feel however that the root cause of our problems lies not with referendums or indeed democracy but with our Politicians of both parties who seem to have the lowest quality of intelligence and basic integrity possible.

John
I think that is something upon which all of us can agree!
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  #245  
Old 28th February 2018
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

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Originally Posted by Wally View Post
I had thought the poll was just another way to prolong the thread / agony. It had already ran the gamut on the original theme when Solar Energy entered through the door. Nature has a way of sorting things out.

Looking on the bright side, it did allow frustrations to be aired which might have lessened pressure on the NHS due to post traumatic brexit stress disorder.

I started this thread off after reading two articles from opposing sides, that quite honestly had left me none the wiser. It did however make me wonder, if after being fed for so many years on a FOSKID diet, aided and abetted by an equally long-term educational dumbing down process, we had lost sight of what had once put the Great in Britain. We were a people of inspiration, which in itself wasn't all that important. What was important was, where that inspiration took us.

I started this thread off after reading two articles from opposing sides, that quite honestly, had left me none the wiser. It did however make me wonder, if after being fed for so many years on a FOSKID diet, aided and abetted by the equally long-term dumbing down process, we had lost sight of what had once put the great in Britain. We were/still are a people of inspiration, which in itself wasn't all that important. What was important was where that inspiration took us.

In all of this, IMHO, what we have collectively forgotten, is where our inspirations can take us.
"Great" actually only means the result of the Act of Union that brought the crowns and countries of Scotland and England into one kingdom. It is equivalent to Hitler's "Grossdeutsches Reich" after he annexed Austria.
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  #246  
Old 28th February 2018
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

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Originally Posted by Zuiko View Post
The problem is it is not as simple as that. Although we are all much better informed than at the time of the ill-judged referendum it is still unclear what Brexit will actually be. Jeremy Corbyn announced a significant change of Labour policy regarding Brexit just a few days ago, revealing a plan to keep us in the Customs Union, whilst Theresa May is due to make a speech on Friday outlining her plan for a "managed diversion" from the EU. That's a phrase I haven't heard before, I wonder what sort of euphemism it will be?

I find it incredible that 19 months after the referendum the two main parties still haven't established clear and settled policies on Brexit. If they cannot fathom it out what chance does the electorate have?

You might rue ruling out another referendum, John, because there is a very real danger that you may be served a Brexit that you didn't order!
Sorry I have missed several days again, due to health and other issues.

I read up on what happened in the 1974 referendum. It was utterly different in that of the main parties, only Labour sat on the fence; guess who was anti? The DUP! However, all the mainstream press were pro-EU then, Wilson's cabinet was mostly pro; and there were only minor dissenting voices, such as Tony Benn. Wilson stated that the result would hold in perpetuity. This time, it was the Tories who had the biggest split, unlike Labour last time; and perhaps more importantly, 90% of the press - the right wing papers - were all not only demanding we leave, but had been howling about how bad the EU is for over twenty years. So one could justifiably say that the press was the main arbiter in persuading people to vote leave; and voters obviously forgot that the press survive and prosper on one thing - bad news. If leaving proves to be a disaster, the press will have a field day.

There are two other important points that I discovered, and politicians seem to ignore.
1. The Good Friday Agreement is actually an international treaty, signed by the UK, Ireland, and the USA, and registered with the UN. If we treat it in Kaiser Bill fashion as "merely a scrap of paper", as well as reneging on the Maastricht Treaty, who the hell will trust us to sign up to trade deals?

2. The WTO is under attack from Trump's administration; he considers it not to work in America's interests, and would like to see it destroyed. Our timing couldn't be better, could it? Get ourselves into something that (a) is likely to put us at odds with Trump, unless we act as his poodle, and (b) is very vulnerable to countries deciding to ignore its (voluntary) rules and regulations. It has a panel of adjudicators and a panel of Appellants, but no court as such. There is, incidentally, a court of international trade, and guess who runs it? The Americans!

I suspect that, the way things are going, we will get ourselves in a much bigger mess than we are at the moment. The big worry with all of this is the seeming lack of competence on the part of our government, as well as the apparent dismissiveness of, for example, BoJo and his FO, of the Good Friday Agreement and the Northern Ireland border issue.
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  #247  
Old 28th February 2018
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

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Originally Posted by KeithL View Post
"Great" actually only means the result of the Act of Union that brought the crowns and countries of Scotland and England into one kingdom. It is equivalent to Hitler's "Grossdeutsches Reich" after he annexed Austria.
I do take your point when referring to Hitler's "Grossdeutsches Reich"

As I said in the post: We were/still are a people of inspiration, which in itself wasn't all that important. What was important was where that inspiration took us.

My thought process was thinking more along the lines of 'collective individual' innovations and discoveries over several centuries, that helped improve and shape the world we now live in.

If you check out British innovations and discoveries... we do really have a heritage to be proud of.
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  #248  
Old 28th February 2018
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

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Originally Posted by Wally View Post
I do take your point when referring to Hitler's "Grossdeutsches Reich"

As I said in the post: We were/still are a people of inspiration, which in itself wasn't all that important. What was important was where that inspiration took us.

My thought process was thinking more along the lines of 'collective individual' innovations and discoveries over several centuries, that helped improve and shape the world we now live in.

If you check out British innovations and discoveries... we do really have a heritage to be proud of.
Yes, but of course we are not alone in that. If you visit the Henry Ford Museum in Dearborn, MI, you will discover that the Americans invented everything. Man generally has been incredibly inventive; we really aren't unique, much as we tend to like to think we are.
  #249  
Old 28th February 2018
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

Posted without comment

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  #250  
Old 28th February 2018
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

Shows what a lot we get back!
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  #251  
Old 28th February 2018
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

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Originally Posted by KeithL View Post
Yes, but of course we are not alone in that. If you visit the Henry Ford Museum in Dearborn, MI, you will discover that the Americans invented everything. Man generally has been incredibly inventive; we really aren't unique, much as we tend to like to think we are.
We have invented a lot of things in the UK that were never taken to market here because we are too afraid to invest. So we hand them over to the Yanks, the Germans, the Japanese and Chinese who have a bit more foresight than our managers and bankers.
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  #252  
Old 6th March 2018
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

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We have invented a lot of things in the UK that were never taken to market here because we are too afraid to invest. So we hand them over to the Yanks, the Germans, the Japanese and Chinese who have a bit more foresight than our managers and bankers.
Got it in one, Nigel!
  #253  
Old 9th March 2018
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Question Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

Now the price is known, the question needs to be asked:

What will I personally get for that?

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/ne...-hiding/08/03/
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  #254  
Old 31st July 2018
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

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This is concerns me a lot; and it isn't necessarily about laziness.


On the subject of bad management, my own industry was rocked by the news of the liquidation of Oyster Yachts just a few days ago, with the loss of around 400 jobs. Oyster was a high quality brand and had been trading successfully for about forty years. They had won a number of new orders at recent boat shows and had recently invested in tooling for two new models. So what could possibly go wrong? How it went down - The Oyster Story

I will let you draw your own conclusions.


Good news on BBC TV Southern News tonight

Oyster Yachts are back in business
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  #255  
Old 31st July 2018
Jim Ford Jim Ford is offline
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

Since the thread was started, the Brexit shambles has got steadily worse, with talk of readying to stockpile food and medicines and the army being prepared for civil unrest.

Brexit is proving to be the biggest mistake in Britain since Harold Godwinson's house carls broke rank to attack the Normans in 1066!

Jim
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