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The lounge Relax, take a break from photo and camera talk - have a chat about something else for a change. Just keep it clean and polite!

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Re: Is this the end for Ryanair?

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The free market will always adapt to the customers' needs. Those that do survive, those that don't, won't. It's a pretty basic and universal point. To stop exploitation of the weak in this endeavour we need regulation - plain and simple. Good government gives us the lightest of regulation commensurate with maximising freedoms. It's a delicate path to tread.

We could arguably say that neo-liberalism and free-market economics, reinforced by globalisation and its impotence to regulate cross-border corporations, has gone too far. That's actually Jeremy Corbyn's message. The stats show that it's an idea that's resonating with the people.
Paul, no such thing as a free market! And there hasn't been since the 17th century. Once a third party is involved in business dealings (i.e. banks or moneylenders) regulation is involved. On top of that, who pays for building roads, railways, power stations, all the infrastructure that so called 'free marketeers' use? We, the taxpayers. The bottom line is that these free marketeers want deregulation of everything that gives them more profit, and regulation of anything that might limit or control their profit. Exactly what Ted Heath called 'the unacceptable face of capitalism'.
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Re: Is this the end for Ryanair?

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I know we might jest, but the "We" choose these cheap/low cost so the "we" can afford expensive cameras amongst other things.

Answer to RyanAir, if you don't think you are paying enough for a service is to book business class or more to fly with.

Personally for the couple of hours in the air to get to my holiday destination, I can put up with a no frills service. As long as I know what no frills means.

Which of course is one of the Ryanair problems.................

This does not excuse Ryanair for their rota problems. Apparantly it is a industry problem of not having enough training places for pilots. Only gonna get worse I am led to believe.......
At the moment trainee pilots are required to stump up £100k+ for training (source: recent BBC documentary on EasyJet). I guess it's only youngsters of rich parents who can afford the luxury. Previously the likes of BA paid the training costs and all they required in return was a bond for the freshly qualified pilot to sign on for a set number of years. If the pilot left for any reason they would reimburse BA on a sliding scale comensurare with year's served. To attract the required number of cadets I think airlines will revert to the old school methods.
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Re: Is this the end for Ryanair?

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At the moment trainee pilots are required to stump up £100k+ for training (source: recent BBC documentary on EasyJet). I guess it's only youngsters of rich parents who can afford the luxury. Previously the likes of BA paid the training costs and all they required in return was a bond for the freshly qualified pilot to sign on for a set number of years. If the pilot left for any reason they would reimburse BA on a sliding scale comensurare with year's served. To attract the required number of cadets I think airlines will revert to the old school methods.
And it isn't just airline pilots! Think lawyers, for example. And MPs; in times past it cost little to become an MP, and it was up to the person's skill in persuading the electors to elect him/her. Not so today! To stand a chance, a would-be MP needs a spell as an intern working for an established MP for no pay. In London. It means that working class MPs are now effectively shut out of Parliament - and many working class MPs in the past were very talented people, not to mention strongly principled.

The total underlying thrust of neoliberal economics and politics is to take wealth and power away from the poorer and middle class populace and give more of both to those already at the top of the pile. Irrespective of partisan politics, people are at last seeing through it, and realizing that it is not a good thing for them, nor for the country at large, and not unnaturally, they are beginning to react against neoliberalism. If we are honest, neoliberalism is as deceiving a misnomer as any I've ever heard! It isn't new, and it certainly isn't liberal: it is largely reproducing the social conditions of the Georgian era.

Neoliberal economics was an invention of American economists who had an axe to grind in getting it adopted world-wide. They were remarkably successful in duping the world to accept their word that it was a good thing, and they got the pendulum to swing decisively in their direction; but when a pendulum swings one way, it is inevitably followed by it swinging back again sooner or later!
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Re: Is this the end for Ryanair?

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And it isn't just airline pilots! Think lawyers, for example. And MPs; in times past it cost little to become an MP, and it was up to the person's skill in persuading the electors to elect him/her. Not so today! To stand a chance, a would-be MP needs a spell as an intern working for an established MP for no pay. In London. It means that working class MPs are now effectively shut out of Parliament - and many working class MPs in the past were very talented people, not to mention strongly principled.

The total underlying thrust of neoliberal economics and politics is to take wealth and power away from the poorer and middle class populace and give more of both to those already at the top of the pile. Irrespective of partisan politics, people are at last seeing through it, and realizing that it is not a good thing for them, nor for the country at large, and not unnaturally, they are beginning to react against neoliberalism. If we are honest, neoliberalism is as deceiving a misnomer as any I've ever heard! It isn't new, and it certainly isn't liberal: it is largely reproducing the social conditions of the Georgian era.
I think you are confusing class with wealth, as the two are very different.

Many of those with class (well bred and educated) have little money, whilst very few of the nouveau-riche have either breeding or class.

Money certainly doesn't buy class in my experience (quite the opposite in fact), and many so called 'working class' actually have more disposable income than those further up the social ladder.

In short I think this is a generalisation too far.

However, returning to the original discussion, I don't know what happened to BA's pilot training scheme, (or those of other major flag carriers), but I suspect its demise had a lot to do with precisely the sort of competition that we are discussing here.

I suspect there may also have been practical and legal difficulties in enforcing penalty clauses if pilots left the company before the agreed time.

A good number of commercial pilots learn their trade in the military, but it may be the case that there simply aren't enough pilots leaving the military to keep up with the demand of the budget airlines. Don't forget that much of their success stems from keeping aircraft in the air for more hours per day than established airlines, so they actually need more pilots per aircraft than the flag carriers, and I know from bitter personal experience that they won't pay to keep staff on standby; even at major airport hubs.

On your point about paid training schemes and the working class, I believe the railway industry still pays drivers and guards throughout their training, and that is a job that most in the upper-middle classes can only dream about.

(I will confess to enquiring about training to drive steam locomotives on one of our local railways, but it isn't cheap.)
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Re: Is this the end for Ryanair?

It's a long time since the airlines have funded pilot training for anything other than a small % of the trainees, although it's an arrangement that waxes and wanes according to supply and demand. It's certainly true that becoming a commercial pilot from scratch takes a lot of time and money.

Back in my gliding days I knew a few people who decided to turn their passion into a career. It took years and a lot of cash. Many took instructing jobs whilst progressing through the training, but the pay was dreadful - it was mainly a way to build hours (although that changed some years ago). Those that eventually got a job found initial salaries little better than stacking shelves at Tesco and usually with the sting in the tail of a bond to cover costs that the airline had to pay to get them type-trained on specific aircraft.

A few made it through all this to well-paid jobs eventually, but unless they got onto long haul routes with one of the big carriers, the workload was pretty punishing.
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Re: Is this the end for Ryanair?

My nephew has spent thousands (dads money) to become a pilot, and has given up, would never work for Ryanair though even though he lives just a few miles away from Stansted. He is applying to work and live abroad where the chances of getting his dream job will be better. I will feel sorry for those who would lose their jobs if RA crashes which it could well do.

Me, I agree with so many on here (Race to the bottom etc etc) have never flown with Ryanair and never will, once got very close to booking a great priced holiday, asked about flight times and carriers, oh its RA, so said no thanks, and guess what the voice at the other end of the phone said...you're not alone in saying that...these type of major companies exist on poor conditions to both staff and consumers, i've flown EJ and BA, and prefer to pay a little bit more to get what I want. Never buy off Amazon so can't comment on them, very rare that I buy off ebay also, use independent coffee shops wherever I can so don't support Costa etc etc. Most of my buying is across a counter face to face and its surprising what you can get when you ask face to face. Until we face up to the fact that there is a price to pay for lowest cost the wheel will continue to turn...

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Re: Is this the end for Ryanair?

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I think you are confusing class with wealth, as the two are very different.

Many of those with class (well bred and educated) have little money, whilst very few of the nouveau-riche have either breeding or class.

Money certainly doesn't buy class in my experience (quite the opposite in fact), and many so called 'working class' actually have more disposable income than those further up the social ladder.

In short I think this is a generalisation too far.

No, I am not! If you look up the figures, you will see that wealth has migrated to the richest in society; a recent figure was that 1% of the richest people in the UK have accrued more wealth than the bottom 55% of the pyramid. It wasn't like that in the 1960s, for instance; and it isn't like that in, for example, Scandinavia, today.

But the figures as such don't matter, the essential point is that the claim of certain protagonists in the US especially is that if you make the rich even richer, their wealth trickles down to those beneath them; it has been conclusively proved that this piece of propaganda is no more than that - wealth trickles up where neoliberal economics are practiced. I saw a figure in one of the books on neoliberalism that I read that something like 490 billion pounds was sucked out of the UK economy between 2008 and 2012. Much of that money would have been disposable income; and disposable income means more tax accrued by the Treasury. Squeezing the less wealthy is a bad idea, making it harder to repay the national debt, and reduce the deficit.

Adam Smith pointed out 240 years ago that the wealth of the state is generated by taxes from the 'middle classes'; the wealthy use every artifice to avoid paying their taxes, and the poorest cannot pay tax. If you hit the 'middle classes', you damage the state.

BTW - I've only flown Ryanair when forced to by work requirements. I would NEVER use them for a holiday - I value my holidays too much!
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Re: Is this the end for Ryanair?

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It's a long time since the airlines have funded pilot training for anything other than a small % of the trainees, although it's an arrangement that waxes and wanes according to supply and demand. It's certainly true that becoming a commercial pilot from scratch takes a lot of time and money.

Back in my gliding days I knew a few people who decided to turn their passion into a career. It took years and a lot of cash. Many took instructing jobs whilst progressing through the training, but the pay was dreadful - it was mainly a way to build hours (although that changed some years ago). Those that eventually got a job found initial salaries little better than stacking shelves at Tesco and usually with the sting in the tail of a bond to cover costs that the airline had to pay to get them type-trained on specific aircraft.

A few made it through all this to well-paid jobs eventually, but unless they got onto long haul routes with one of the big carriers, the workload was pretty punishing.
In the IET journal over the last few months there were quite a few letters from members about the oft-claimed shortage of engineers. The theme that was echoed in many of those letters was, there isn't a shortage of engineers - but there is a shortage of engineers who are willing to work for rubbish pay after they have spent a lot of money becoming qualified. This country does not value professional people except perhaps lawyers and money-men. Now retired, I am a U3A member, and I notice that as a retired engineer, I am the 'poor relation' of those who worked in the insurance business, for certain types of bank, solicitors, and similar. People generally who do not contribute to the wealth of the country in the sense of making something to sell to other countries and with added value. If I had a son who wanted to be an engineer, I would advise him to go to Germany for a career. Germany values its engineers and scientists and craftsmen; Britain doesn't. And I have to say, I am saddened to have to feel like that.
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Re: Is this the end for Ryanair?

As a follow-on from the KeithL post above, I think this *sums* it up in a nut shell the problem of being paid what one is worth, or not, as the case may be.

*Salaries are covered by the NHS Agenda for Change pay scales. Paramedic salaries start in Band 5, which ranges from £21,909 to £28,462. For team leaders or senior paramedics who have undertaken extended skills training in critical care or trauma, salaries are in Band 6, which fall between £26,302 and £35,225.*

Why does an actor on TV pretending to be a senior nurse gets a salary of £250,000 when the real item gets roughly 1/10th the salary?
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Re: Is this the end for Ryanair?

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In the IET journal over the last few months there were quite a few letters from members about the oft-claimed shortage of engineers. The theme that was echoed in many of those letters was, there isn't a shortage of engineers - but there is a shortage of engineers who are willing to work for rubbish pay after they have spent a lot of money becoming qualified. This country does not value professional people except perhaps lawyers and money-men. Now retired, I am a U3A member, and I notice that as a retired engineer, I am the 'poor relation' of those who worked in the insurance business, for certain types of bank, solicitors, and similar. People generally who do not contribute to the wealth of the country in the sense of making something to sell to other countries and with added value. If I had a son who wanted to be an engineer, I would advise him to go to Germany for a career. Germany values its engineers and scientists and craftsmen; Britain doesn't. And I have to say, I am saddened to have to feel like that.
I quite agree Keith. The underlying problem of course is economics. The present day economic system, particularly in the UK, is too heavily skewed to financial services where a relatively small number of people make a lot of money from essentially playing a rather arcane game. They in turn feed off a real economy where exploitation, whether of people or the planet, is considered normal. Maximise profit, minimise taxation and damn the rest is the underlying theme, even if there are some lofty corporate mission statements that try to tell us otherwise.

The recent chicken processing scandal unearthed by The Guardian is an example. The food processing business is run by low paid East European workers in miserable conditions just so that we can get cheap food on the shelves. Some undercover Guardian reporters found an example of returned chicken from Lidl being repackaged for Tesco under their "Willow Farm" brand - described on the Tesco website as being "reared exclusively for Tesco". That their CEO thinks it's fine to make these sort of claims ("because it's clear that it's just a brand ") I think is a perfect example of just how much contempt the leaders of these companies show us - driven of course by the economics of maximising profit above all else.

Now I do realise that wealth needs to be created, but it needs to be created not just for a select few at the expense of the planet and the vast bulk of the world's population. We need an economic system that recognises sustainable activity where everyone has fair access to its fruits.
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Re: Is this the end for Ryanair?

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Maximise profit, minimise taxation and damn the rest is the underlying theme, even if there are some lofty corporate mission statements that try to tell us otherwise.

The recent chicken processing scandal unearthed by The Guardian is an example. The food processing business is run by low paid East European workers in miserable conditions just so that we can get cheap food on the shelves. Some undercover Guardian reporters found an example of returned chicken from Lidl being repackaged for Tesco under their "Willow Farm" brand - described on the Tesco website as being "reared exclusively for Tesco". That their CEO thinks it's fine to make these sort of claims ("because it's clear that it's just a brand ") I think is a perfect example of just how much contempt the leaders of these companies show us - driven of course by the economics of maximising profit above all else.

Now I do realise that wealth needs to be created, but it needs to be created not just for a select few at the expense of the planet and the vast bulk of the world's population. We need an economic system that recognises sustainable activity where everyone has fair access to its fruits.
Hear, hear, Paul! I've had people throw back at me "You're a red!" No! I'm a realist; the bottom line is, if we carry on like this, ultimately, we're courting what happened in Russia. People will take so much, and eventually the worm turns. A big part of our problem in this country is a kind of blind adoration of all things American, including their economic system. But those who think it's wonderful to ape the Americans probably equate America with two cities - New York and Las Vegas. (I'm getting heartily sick of people who sell family heirlooms or quizzes, when asked what they will do with the money, respond with, "I want to go to Las Vegas.") The simple fact is that around a third of Americans have no healthcare, and appallingly low paid jobs, whilst those at the top are amongst the richest people in the world. Known as the Walmart economy - and Walmart relies, we are told, on Chinese workers on very low pay together with the rinminbi being at a low level in relation to the dollar. If the rinminbi went up much in value, Walmart's marketplace would be in big trouble!

This is pretty much what's happening here. A local company near where I live some years ago now fired most of its local employees and replaced them with E Europeans on half the pay. That had a negative effect on the economy of the local town centre. Look at farms in the Fens; I doubt you'd need two hands to count the total local crop pickers in the Fens now - they are all Poles and other E Europeans. Ironically, quite a few farmers supported UKIP and Brexit; now they are panicking, thinking that they will lose their workforce after Brexit!

A lot of this - and probably the chicken scandal - has been driven by the big supermarkets; they have driven prices down that they pay to suppliers and producers; and the latter have probably had little choice to find cheap labour, in order to cut their costs, although some were actively using illegals employed on "the Lump" decades ago.

With all these things, sooner or later, if you'll pardon the pun, the chickens come home to roost, and it looks likely they will do in a couple of years or so.
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Re: Is this the end for Ryanair?

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No, I am not! If you look up the figures, you will see that wealth has migrated to the richest in society; a recent figure was that 1% of the richest people in the UK have accrued more wealth than the bottom 55% of the pyramid. It wasn't like that in the 1960s, for instance; and it isn't like that in, for example, Scandinavia, today.
I don't disagree with you there, but then you are talking about the 'top 1%', and they don't represent the sort of people that we are discussing, and they don't include lawyers, politicians or airline pilots, as the top 1% are in a different league entirely.

The irony is that we have collectively put that top 1% where they are now by blindly buying their products and services. The even greater irony is that the poorest aspire to support that top 1% even more than the middle classes.

The lovely, endearing Mike Ashley comes to mind, (how many £millions has he made from teenagers pestering hard-up parents for the latest trainers?), but there are many others.

Somebody asked the other day, "how do you milk a sheep?"

The answer: Launch a new iPhone and charge £1,000 for it!
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Re: Is this the end for Ryanair?

I see one of the rags reported today that Ryanair have launched a recruitment drive, and are holding 'crash courses' for new pilots at Prestwick Airport.

Didn't the Japanese Air Force operate a similar training scheme for pilots during WW2?

I'm just glad I don't live on the flight path!

I would be interested to see the job descriptions in writing, and the qualifications required. I wonder whether they are using Job Centre Plus to recruit crew? Or maybe they are taking school leavers so they can pay a lower minimum wage.
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Re: Is this the end for Ryanair?

"Is this the end for Ryanair?"

Not sure .... but it's certainly the end for Monarch.
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Re: Is this the end for Ryanair?

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"Is this the end for Ryanair?"

Not sure .... but it's certainly the end for Monarch.
Yes indeed. Very sad for all of those involved. How many saw that coming?

Will Michael O'Leary be recruiting the redundant Monarch pilots I wonder, or will the Monarch pilots not be that desperate?

I understand there is a new Norwegian airline that has taken many disillusioned Ryanair pilots, and is offering them much better contracts and working conditions.

It seems Ryanair pilots were employed as contractors rather than as staff, (no doubt on zero-hours contracts), so they didn't know from one week to the next when they would be working or how much they would be paid.
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