Olympus UK E-System User Group
Olympus UK E-System User Group

Join our unique resource for Olympus Four Thirds E-System DSLR and Pen and OM-D Micro Four Thirds photographers. Show your images via our free e-group photo gallery. Please read the e-group.uk.net forum terms and conditions before posting for the first time. Above all, welcome!


Go Back   Olympus UK E-System User Group > Out of Focus area > The lounge

The lounge Relax, take a break from photo and camera talk - have a chat about something else for a change. Just keep it clean and polite!

View Poll Results: Are you getting fed up with Brexit and should we go back to discussing other things ?
YES - Close the thread 18 47.37%
NO - Keep the debate going on for eternity 20 52.63%
Voters: 38. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1576  
Old 1 Week Ago
Otto's Avatar
Otto Otto is offline
Full member
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: North Yorkshire
Posts: 1,854
Thanks: 72
Thanked 177 Times in 158 Posts
Likes: 570
Liked 486 Times in 318 Posts
Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

"Diesel" only refers to the engine, not the transmission. Sprinters have hydraulic transmission, not electric (yes, that surprised me too!).

NN - were the 43s re-engined mostly to meet emission standards or because the old Paxmans were getting unreliable? Either way they don't sound half as good!

And back on topic:
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/poli...-a3959996.html

But that's all Project Fear isn't it?
__________________
Regards
Richard
Reply With Quote
  #1577  
Old 1 Week Ago
Naughty Nigel's Avatar
Naughty Nigel Naughty Nigel is offline
Full member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Land of the Prince Bishops
Posts: 7,381
Thanks: 299
Thanked 416 Times in 356 Posts
Likes: 2,290
Liked 1,648 Times in 1,124 Posts
Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto View Post
"Diesel" only refers to the engine, not the transmission. Sprinters have hydraulic transmission, not electric (yes, that surprised me too!).

NN - were the 43s re-engined mostly to meet emission standards or because the old Paxmans were getting unreliable? Either way they don't sound half as good!

And back on topic:
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/poli...-a3959996.html

But that's all Project Fear isn't it?
Indeed; Sprinters use Voith hydraulic transmissions.

Whilst on the subject the Deltics also used hydraulic transmission as do the much maligned Pacers; although the latter is a much cruder affair.

The Class 43's were re-engined because the old Valenta Paxman VP185's were becoming increasingly unreliable and expensive to run. They Paxmans had, after all, covered several million miles and were over twenty years old when they were replaced!

Emissions in the form of thick 'clag' were also a major problem, and in some cases the HST sets stopped short of station canopies to avoid filling them with smoke.

The Valenta Paxman was a V12 engine with only turbochargers (and very little silencing) between the exhaust manifold and the outside world, hence the gorgeous soundtrack. The all efficient Teutonic MTU is a V16 engine, which whilst very powerful and efficient just sounds boring.

The MTU's are coupled to the same alternators and traction motors as the original Paxman engines so power output has been down rated to suit, which also helps reliability.

EDIT: I forgot that several pacers were sold to the republic of Iran, which might explain why they don't like us very much. All have been decommissioned now apart from one in preservation.
__________________
---------------

Naughty Nigel


Difficult is worth doing
Reply With Quote
  #1578  
Old 1 Week Ago
Naughty Nigel's Avatar
Naughty Nigel Naughty Nigel is offline
Full member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Land of the Prince Bishops
Posts: 7,381
Thanks: 299
Thanked 416 Times in 356 Posts
Likes: 2,290
Liked 1,648 Times in 1,124 Posts
Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harold Gough View Post
There's no such thing as a diesel is there, all diesel-electric.Any power transfer is inefficient. We might as well use electricty for trains. It's not as though there is any foreseable major increase in demand.
Ah yes, but a diesel engine is only run when it is needed. Think of it as JIT energy!

A diesel engine fitted into a train is also a lot more efficient than the same engine in a power station 50 miles away connected by miles of overhead lines, transformers, substations and so forth.

And as I said before, if electricity is so clean, green and efficient why does a Kilowatt Hour of electricity cost five times that of the equivalent heat volume of natural gas?

I'm note sure what you mean about 'foreseeable major increases in demand'?

If you mean passenger trains there has been a year on year increase in passenger miles for the past twenty years or so, to the point that the railways are carrying more passengers now than at any time in the past.

If you mean electricity, decommissioning of old coal fired generation means that we have limited capacity at present and there are fears of blackouts within the next few years. And if everyone buys electric cars......
__________________
---------------

Naughty Nigel


Difficult is worth doing
Reply With Quote
  #1579  
Old 1 Week Ago
Otto's Avatar
Otto Otto is offline
Full member
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: North Yorkshire
Posts: 1,854
Thanks: 72
Thanked 177 Times in 158 Posts
Likes: 570
Liked 486 Times in 318 Posts
Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

There are plenty of Class 43 "clag" videos on YouTube, at least one of which resembles a steam locomotive! I have to disagree on the Deltics though, they are diesel-electric, not hydraulic. Wikipedia says so so it must be true . The Napier Deltic engines have a very unusual and characteristic soundtrack too. What sort of mind dreamed up that engine goodness knows but it's an extraordinary piece of engineering!
__________________
Regards
Richard
Reply With Quote
  #1580  
Old 1 Week Ago
Naughty Nigel's Avatar
Naughty Nigel Naughty Nigel is offline
Full member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Land of the Prince Bishops
Posts: 7,381
Thanks: 299
Thanked 416 Times in 356 Posts
Likes: 2,290
Liked 1,648 Times in 1,124 Posts
Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto View Post
There are plenty of Class 43 "clag" videos on YouTube, at least one of which resembles a steam locomotive! I have to disagree on the Deltics though, they are diesel-electric, not hydraulic. Wikipedia says so so it must be true . The Napier Deltic engines have a very unusual and characteristic soundtrack too. What sort of mind dreamed up that engine goodness knows but it's an extraordinary piece of engineering!
You are right Richard. Thank you for that.

I had always thought the Deltic was diesel hydraulic. I have never been inside one but I think I was confusing them with the Class 22 "Baby Warship".

The history of the Deltic engine concept is an interesting one and goes back to before WWII. Accordign to Wiki "Before the war, Napier had been working on an aviation Diesel design known as the Culverin after licensing versions of the Junkers Jumo 204."

Apparently the Deltic story began in 1943 when the British Admiralty set up a committee to develop a high-power, lightweight Diesel engine for Motor Torpedo Boats. However, I am sure there was a Junkers engine using the same formation used by the Germans during WWII.

Oh, and don't forget that Doxford marine diesel engines were used an opposed piston configuration.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napier_Deltic
__________________
---------------

Naughty Nigel


Difficult is worth doing
Reply With Quote
  #1581  
Old 1 Week Ago
Otto's Avatar
Otto Otto is offline
Full member
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: North Yorkshire
Posts: 1,854
Thanks: 72
Thanked 177 Times in 158 Posts
Likes: 570
Liked 486 Times in 318 Posts
Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

I believe the Paxman Valenta started life as a marine engine too. The Anson Engine Museum at Poynton near Stockport has sectioned examples of both the Deltic and Valenta engines, as well as an enormous variety of mostly internal combustion engines of all shapes and sizes, together with some steam. Anyone with more than a passing interest in engines should visit it. Sadly, its web site does not do it justice.

In the early years of the diesel era BR tried a variety of diesel-electric and diesel-hydraulic loco designs, one of the largest of the latter being the Class 52 "Westerns". Both systems had their advocates, advantages and disadvantages, but electric won in the end, mostly because of better reliability.
__________________
Regards
Richard
Reply With Quote
The Following User Liked This Post:
Naughty Nigel (1 Week Ago)
  #1582  
Old 1 Week Ago
Naughty Nigel's Avatar
Naughty Nigel Naughty Nigel is offline
Full member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Land of the Prince Bishops
Posts: 7,381
Thanks: 299
Thanked 416 Times in 356 Posts
Likes: 2,290
Liked 1,648 Times in 1,124 Posts
Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto View Post
I believe the Paxman Valenta started life as a marine engine too.
Yes it did. The Valenta was and still is used un a variety of boats, and is particularly popular in Naval fast patrol boats and the like both in the UK and overseas. As you would imagine they sound wonderful when given some head.

Like the MTU the Paxman Valenta is available in several cylinder configurations from V6 up to V16 and even V24 I think.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto View Post
The Anson Engine Museum at Poynton near Stockport has sectioned examples of both the Deltic and Valenta engines, as well as an enormous variety of mostly internal combustion engines of all shapes and sizes, together with some steam. Anyone with more than a passing interest in engines should visit it. Sadly, its web site does not do it justice.
Thank you for that Richard. The Anson Engine Museum has gone straight to the top of my 'must do' list for the winter.
__________________
---------------

Naughty Nigel


Difficult is worth doing
Reply With Quote
  #1583  
Old 1 Week Ago
TimP TimP is offline
Full member
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Deepest Darkest Dorset
Posts: 647
Thanks: 19
Thanked 20 Times in 20 Posts
Likes: 62
Liked 220 Times in 161 Posts
Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harold Gough View Post
There's no such thing as a diesel is there, all diesel-electric.Any power transfer is inefficient. We might as well use electricty for trains. It's not as though there is any foreseable major increase in demand.
Never given it much thought I guess but do the DMUs of whatever they are called run electric traction motors? I know the locos do but wasn’t sure about the others, sprinters etc?
Reply With Quote
  #1584  
Old 1 Week Ago
TimP TimP is offline
Full member
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Deepest Darkest Dorset
Posts: 647
Thanks: 19
Thanked 20 Times in 20 Posts
Likes: 62
Liked 220 Times in 161 Posts
Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

Quote:
Originally Posted by TimP View Post
Never given it much thought I guess but do the DMUs of whatever they are called run electric traction motors? I know the locos do but wasn’t sure about the others, sprinters etc?
Oops! I should have caught up on the thread before typing a reply! I see the transmission questions has been thoroughly answered. Thanks.
Reply With Quote
  #1585  
Old 1 Week Ago
Otto's Avatar
Otto Otto is offline
Full member
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: North Yorkshire
Posts: 1,854
Thanks: 72
Thanked 177 Times in 158 Posts
Likes: 570
Liked 486 Times in 318 Posts
Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

I'm not sure they're open over the winter Nigel, I would contact them before travelling. When I visited last month there were two rooms full of Gardner engines celebrating that company's 150th anniversary, the first diesel engine made in the UK, and the largest Crossley free-piston "atmospheric" engine ever built. It works on the Otto-Langen principle (no relation!).


The principle of operation of that is basically to fire a piston upwards to compress the air in a cylinder. The subsequent expansion of that air is what does the work - there's a one-way clutch on the rack-and-pinion which allows the piston to fly upwards without affecting the motion of the engine (hence "free piston") and engages as the piston falls thus turning the shaft. A preposterous design in hindsight!
__________________
Regards
Richard
Reply With Quote
  #1586  
Old 1 Week Ago
Wally's Avatar
Wally Wally is offline
Full member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Land of the Prince Bishops
Posts: 3,254
Thanks: 215
Thanked 1,039 Times in 644 Posts
Likes: 396
Liked 1,244 Times in 589 Posts
Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Naughty Nigel View Post
The MTU powered Class 43's do meet current standards I believe. They are certainly very clean running and much cleaner than the old Paxman engines.

Class 66 is mainly used for freight and for rescuing stranded Class 91's (electric trains) on the ECML when the lines come down!

Electric trains may be cleaner and more efficient but what about the power stations that generate the electricity? If electricity is so clean, green and efficient why does it cost 5 x that of natural gas per KW/Hr?

Not that I'm clued up, but I seem to remember reading - quite recently - that they use gas powered stations to generate electricity?
__________________
It's not what inspires us that is important, it's where the journey takes us.

Wally and his Collie with our Oly bits & bobs

Reply With Quote
  #1587  
Old 1 Week Ago
TimP TimP is offline
Full member
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Deepest Darkest Dorset
Posts: 647
Thanks: 19
Thanked 20 Times in 20 Posts
Likes: 62
Liked 220 Times in 161 Posts
Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

There are quite a few gas powered electricity generating sub-stations about the place. I think they’re used to quickly boost power in times of need. Something that should start to be taken up by solar charged battery storage.
Reply With Quote
  #1588  
Old 1 Week Ago
Otto's Avatar
Otto Otto is offline
Full member
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: North Yorkshire
Posts: 1,854
Thanks: 72
Thanked 177 Times in 158 Posts
Likes: 570
Liked 486 Times in 318 Posts
Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

Here's a useful site that shows how much electricity is being used and from which sources:
http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/


Currently around 36% is coming from gas and 28% from wind - I guess we have storm Callum to thank for that. Nuclear is providing 17%, and solar less than 2%. Nearly 5% is coming from France and 2% from thre Netherlands via bidirectional links. What happens to those after Brexit?
__________________
Regards
Richard
Reply With Quote
  #1589  
Old 1 Week Ago
Wally's Avatar
Wally Wally is offline
Full member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Land of the Prince Bishops
Posts: 3,254
Thanks: 215
Thanked 1,039 Times in 644 Posts
Likes: 396
Liked 1,244 Times in 589 Posts
Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto View Post
Here's a useful site that shows how much electricity is being used and from which sources:
http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/


Currently around 36% is coming from gas and 28% from wind - I guess we have storm Callum to thank for that. Nuclear is providing 17%, and solar less than 2%. Nearly 5% is coming from France and 2% from thre Netherlands via bidirectional links. What happens to those after Brexit?

Brexit... what's that? AH! Of course, AKA the great ongoing politically motivated scam foisted upon the public.

I doubt even Fagin would have stooped so low when picking a pocket or two? As for Dick Turpin, he at least had the decency to wear a mask when he robbed the public.
__________________
It's not what inspires us that is important, it's where the journey takes us.

Wally and his Collie with our Oly bits & bobs

Reply With Quote
  #1590  
Old 1 Week Ago
Naughty Nigel's Avatar
Naughty Nigel Naughty Nigel is offline
Full member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Land of the Prince Bishops
Posts: 7,381
Thanks: 299
Thanked 416 Times in 356 Posts
Likes: 2,290
Liked 1,648 Times in 1,124 Posts
Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto View Post
Here's a useful site that shows how much electricity is being used and from which sources:
http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/


Currently around 36% is coming from gas and 28% from wind - I guess we have storm Callum to thank for that. Nuclear is providing 17%, and solar less than 2%. Nearly 5% is coming from France and 2% from thre Netherlands via bidirectional links. What happens to those after Brexit?
The links are bidirectional but we buy far more electricity from France (and Holland) than they do from us. France relies heavily on nuclear energy so their electricity is cheaper than ours. The Netherlands are fairly self sufficient in wind power so it makes sense for them to sell any surplus.

Equally though, we have two similar links to the island or Ireland which buys our cheaper electricity, but on a much smaller scale than we buy from mainland Europe.

As a point of interest, all interconnectors use rectified (DC) electricity and then use inverters to convert is back to AC once on dry land. This is because of the very high losses that long-distance AC interconnectors suffer.

I have no idea what will happen after Brexit but it is in everyone's interests for the present arrangements to continue. Without French electricity we would have blackouts, especially once everyone tries to charge their electric cars!

I suppose we will have to see what tariffs Jean-Claude Juncker slaps on electricity imports and exports.

I wonder what will happen to mobile phone charges. At present EU rules mean that mobile operators can no longer charge us extra to call home when roaming in Europe, but once we leave Europe....

I cannot see the mobile phone operators being slow to cash in on any money-making opportunity.
__________________
---------------

Naughty Nigel


Difficult is worth doing
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
We're doomed! Harold Gough The lounge 11 26th January 2017 04:44 PM
Captain F. J. Walker Ricoh Foto Fair 2 13th April 2015 05:59 PM
Doomed, the whole World is doomed! (Political) Harold Gough The lounge 93 29th December 2014 01:40 PM
Why MFT is doomed - report mike_j The lounge 20 21st January 2014 04:49 PM
Doomed to failure David Morison Foto Fair 3 5th September 2012 08:00 AM


All times are GMT. The time now is 09:14 PM.


© The Write Technology Ltd, 2007-2018, All rights reservedAd Management plugin by RedTyger