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The lounge Relax, take a break from photo and camera talk - have a chat about something else for a change. Just keep it clean and polite!

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  #61  
Old 11th October 2018
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Re: How are we going to save the planet?

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I think if we are to cut CO2 emissions to the levels we need then aviation will need to play a part. The only lever we have to control anything really is economics. The cost of flying needs to go up so that we do less of it. That will mean flying becomes the preserve of the rich - just like it was in its early days.

Maybe better internet bandwidth and latency along with better conference facilities will replace some of the need for travel - especially for business.

A great example of all this is that two of my colleagues are making a trip this coming weekend to Seattle for a 1 day meeting and a dinner - a three day trip in total with about 18 hours in the air. It'll probably cost £10k when all is considered but given the prize it's deemed money well spent. If it were £100k then we'd find an alternative. Economics is a blunt instrument but I think it's one of the few things that history has shown to be an effective tool to change behaviours.

Of course the only way to make this sort of change is for concerted action by all the major economic blocks - which of course is what the IPCC is trying to make happen. Things like Brexit and Trump only make these sort of initiatives harder.
Since the Brexiteers won the vote, I have seen my airfare from London to Nairobi escalate by as much as £200 more than it was before the vote. Air travel for people like myself is essential and we are not rich. When I worked in Medi-Vacs, a typical flight from London to Tokyo would cost £4000 pp in business class and its the insurance companies who picks up the cost and of course its really the public who are paying for the service via their premiums. Company policy was any flight over 5 hours, its a seat in business class and if business class is full, it is first class. I had to do a flight with an anaesthetist from Jamaica to London, a stretcher case which took up 12 seats (economy). There will always be people who have to fly for work, pleasure or in an emergency. I don't think that putting up the price of flying is going to be the complete answer.
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  #62  
Old 11th October 2018
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Re: How are we going to save the planet?

One way to restrict damage to the environment and climate without the greatest burden falling on the poor rather than the rich would be for each of us, and every business and corporation, to be issued with an annual damage allowance which cannot be exceeded. That way, we would have to choose which activities were most important to us.
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  #63  
Old 11th October 2018
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Re: How are we going to save the planet?

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One way to restrict damage to the environment and climate without the greatest burden falling on the poor rather than the rich would be for each of us, and every business and corporation, to be issued with an annual damage allowance which cannot be exceeded. That way, we would have to choose which activities were most important to us.
This idea has merits. Isn't it what the current carbon trading scheme for large corporations tries to achieve.
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  #64  
Old 11th October 2018
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Re: How are we going to save the planet?

The likes of any of us on here are not going to save the planet, that job falls to the politicians and corporates of this world. I’m sure we all do our bit (I know we try our best) but until something is mooted / done properly at a much higher level all we are doing is pi55ing into a very strong wind. It all feels a bit pointless when you hear the next world congress on climate change is to be held in yet another high profile city with all the delegates and their ever expanding entourages, along with the news agencies etc, are all flying off to the aforementioned cities to spout their advice that the ordinary man needs to do much more. How about they lead the way and video conference the crap instead of adding extra pollution by their very act. Us making soup out of spare tomatoes ain’t gonna save the world any time soon. Stop the rich buying multiple homes, stop the Russian and Arab ‘elite’ buying up half of London and then not living there. Start at the top before you hammer the rest of us, we’ve had the burden enough already. Grrrrr!
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Old 11th October 2018
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Re: How are we going to save the planet?

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Possibly but what do you suggest we do?
Price flying out of the reach of ordinary people and it becomes the preserve of the rich. Travel is a good thing, it broadens the mind, makes you realise that in the main, people are all the same and wanting one thing, to get on with life.
You could use those arguments to justify anything though. We have laws to protect the public against direct risks, (i.e. speed limits, H&S, employment law, etc.), but we neglect indirect or secondary risks, especially where the environment is concerned.

I am not suggesting that we should all stop flying or that flying should again be the preserve of the rich, but I would counter that a great many fights are totally unnecessary. I would happily fly less than I do now, (I already use the train wherever possible to visit Europe), but it has become "expected" that everyone will fly.

What about the Olympics and major Football events. Why are these so often held in faraway places so that competitors and fans have to fly vast distances to get there?

But air passengers account for just a fraction of air travel. How much air freight is there in the sky at one time, including bottled water being shipped from France and Italy to the UK? Never mind the plastic bottles, can we not make our own water?

Bodies for the new high speed trains being built in Newton Aycliffe are air freighted from Japan. Perhaps we should learn how to weld aluminium in the UK?

The 'Just in Time' industry is also a huge problem. There was an item on the BBC news recently about Toyota and Brexit, where it was explained that every car was ordered individually, and that parts of each vehicle must be delivered on the day of manufacture for their production schedules to work. Given that many of these components come from all around Europe and beyond might it not be possible to make weekly rather than daily deliveries?

Nissan, who have a big factory at Sunderland, actually stopped Sunderland Football Club from building a new stadium close to their works because it would interrupt their just in time deliveries. Is it really so hard to keep enough supplies for two or three day's work?
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  #66  
Old 11th October 2018
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Re: How are we going to save the planet?

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You could use those arguments to justify anything though. We have laws to protect the public against direct risks, (i.e. speed limits, H&S, employment law, etc.), but we neglect indirect or secondary risks, especially where the environment is concerned.

...............

But air passengers account for just a fraction of air travel. How much air freight is there in the sky at one time, including bottled water being shipped from France and Italy to the UK? Never mind the plastic bottles, can we not make our own water?

Bodies for the new high speed trains being built in Newton Aycliffe are air freighted from Japan. Perhaps we should learn how to weld aluminium in the UK?

The 'Just in Time' industry is also a huge problem. There was an item on the BBC news recently about Toyota and Brexit, where it was explained that every car was ordered individually, and that parts of each vehicle must be delivered on the day of manufacture for their production schedules to work. Given that many of these components come from all around Europe and beyond might it not be possible to make weekly rather than daily deliveries?

Nissan, who have a big factory at Sunderland, actually stopped Sunderland Football Club from building a new stadium close to their works because it would interrupt their just in time deliveries. Is it really so hard to keep enough supplies for two or three day's work?
Totally agree, car manufacturers are just making excuses for being lazy.

I really would like to know what the extra cost of using weekly or even monthly deliveries vs daily deliveries actually is. The Car manufacturer might save a tiny amount on storage but the suppliers take the hit. Bet you the car manufacturers don't pay their suppliers on a daily basis!
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  #67  
Old 11th October 2018
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Re: How are we going to save the planet?

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Totally agree, car manufacturers are just making excuses for being lazy.

I really would like to know what the extra cost of using weekly or even monthly deliveries vs daily deliveries actually is. The Car manufacturer might save a tiny amount on storage but the suppliers take the hit. Bet you the car manufacturers don't pay their suppliers on a daily basis!
You don't understand Dave. JIT manufacturing saves an enormous amount in terms of wasted production and it reduces inefficiencies in the manufacturing process. It also makes companies more able to respond quickly to changing customer needs. There may be more costs in transport, but the saving in not manufacturing things that aren't needed and significantly reducing warehouse facilities more than makes up for it.

Of course there are always some things that don't work with JIT (small suppliers, long supply chains etc), but they are usually only at the margin. If too much cannot be sourced via JIT then you become uncompetitive. That is why the car manufacturers are against Brexit btw.
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  #68  
Old 11th October 2018
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Re: How are we going to save the planet?

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Your don't understand Dave. JIT manufacturing saves an enormous amount in terms of wasted production and it reduces inefficiencies in the manufacturing process. It also makes companies more able to respond quickly to changing customer needs. There may be more costs in transport, but the saving in not manufacturing things that aren't needed and significantly reducing warehouse facilities more than makes up for it.
I do understand, but if it takes 1 - 6+ months to get your new car delivered to your spec from order time what mis forecasting is there? Its not as if the car manufacturers don't have a backlog.

As I said I would really like to see the actual savings in £ terms (or as a percentage of total cost.)

For a product that is constantly changing due to customer demand then yes more frequent JIT deliveries are important.
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Old 11th October 2018
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Re: How are we going to save the planet?

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Of course there are always some things that don't work with JIT (small suppliers, long supply chains etc), but they are usually only at the margin. If too much cannot be sourced via JIT then you become uncompetitive. That is why the car manufacturers are against Brexit btw.
I thought the main reason car companies were against Brexit was due to the fact that significant numbers of major components have to cross and recross borders many times for a complete car to be produced. Add in any customs / paperwork delays at those borders and it all becomes ridiculous.
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Old 11th October 2018
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Re: How are we going to save the planet?

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I thought the main reason car companies were against Brexit was due to the fact that significant numbers of major components have to cross and recross borders many times for a complete car to be produced. Add in any customs / paperwork delays at those borders and it all becomes ridiculous.
Non-EU based manufacturers seem to compete - funny that.
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Old 11th October 2018
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Re: How are we going to save the planet?

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Non-EU based manufacturers seem to compete - funny that.
Presumably because they are not pissing about sending engines from one country to another, then back again etc. I’d presume that something like a High-and-Dry starts life in Korea and all its component parts, for the most part, remain within Korea’s borders before they get loaded onto a ship as a complete vehicle to go to the country of sale.
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Old 11th October 2018
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Re: How are we going to save the planet?

Well I'm trying to do my bit, just assisting in putting together a technology proposal to reduce carbon emissions from a system by 92%....

can't quite make it 100% but am trying!
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  #73  
Old 11th October 2018
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Re: How are we going to save the planet?

You could make it 100% if the system wasn’t necessary in the first place, like HS2 for example!
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  #74  
Old 11th October 2018
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Re: How are we going to save the planet?

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Presumably because they are not pissing about sending engines from one country to another, then back again etc. I’d presume that something like a High-and-Dry starts life in Korea and all its component parts, for the most part, remain within Korea’s borders before they get loaded onto a ship as a complete vehicle to go to the country of sale.
Quite. And that's the whole reason why Brexit is a dumb idea economically. European car manufacturing has become tightly integrated with suppliers working across many countries. The UK can't just grow a whole industry of component manufacturers overnight.
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  #75  
Old 12th October 2018
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Re: How are we going to save the planet?

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You don't understand Dave. JIT manufacturing saves an enormous amount in terms of wasted production and it reduces inefficiencies in the manufacturing process. It also makes companies more able to respond quickly to changing customer needs. There may be more costs in transport, but the saving in not manufacturing things that aren't needed and significantly reducing warehouse facilities more than makes up for it.

Of course there are always some things that don't work with JIT (small suppliers, long supply chains etc), but they are usually only at the margin. If too much cannot be sourced via JIT then you become uncompetitive. That is why the car manufacturers are against Brexit btw.
I can see the advantages of JIT - when it works - but all too often it seems to be used as an alternative to any kind of advance planning.

As others have said, you have to wait at least a month for a new car, so there is no reason why a week's supply cannot be bought in. The majority of components are common to all models in the range anyway so why do they have to be delivered by the day? Surely the cost of a delay in the supply chain on one minor but crucial component far outweighs any savings?
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