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The lounge Relax, take a break from photo and camera talk - have a chat about something else for a change. Just keep it clean and polite!

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  #31  
Old 21st November 2017
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Re: Bloody cars !

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Originally Posted by Petrochemist View Post
Kerosene has a significantly lower flash point than diesel (35°C min cf 76°min) so is more flammable and also has lower lubricity increasing the wear on fuel pumps etc.
It would also contain customs markers (Solvent yellow 124, & coumarin for kero.) that would show road duty had not been paid on it. If HMC&E had caught him he could have lost his car & faced a fine/imprisonment on top of that...
I don't know if it is still allowed, but at one time it was permissible to add up to one gallon of kerosene / paraffin to ten gallons of diesel fuel oil to prevent waxing at low temperatures.

However, that was long before Common Rail diesels. I wouldn't want to risk adding paraffin to the fuel in those for fear of very hefty repair bills!

There was also a scam in Ireland where most of the red dye in TVO/marine diesel was removed by mixing the fuel oil with Fullers Earth in large tanks before allowing to settle. I can imagine Fullers Earth would be disastrous for most engines.
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  #32  
Old 21st November 2017
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Re: Bloody cars !

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Originally Posted by Simon Bee View Post
I guess it is as most manufacturers copy one another to some degree, still a dumb-ass idea IMO.
There are two main reasons, Simon.

1) Providing all is OK, you don't need the engine running to get power steering.

2) It gives you variable assistance with speed, in a much more effective way than hydraulic assisted steering can.

And in more modern vehicles, there is a regulatory requirement to have stability control; that means the steering system has to be able to override what the driver inputs to it. The purpose is to correct over or under steer, and therefore reduce the risk of collision on Europe's crowded roads. The thing is, most drivers are less than truly competent when it comes to controlling skids, so ESC is a useful function. It also works with the ABS, both in controlling skids, and also reducing thinnest of a skid when on an icy road you may have two wheels on a low-mu surface (ice) and two on a part of the road that isn't icy. Even with ABS, the transition can provoke a skid.
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  #33  
Old 21st November 2017
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Re: Bloody cars !

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Originally Posted by Ross the fiddler View Post
Exactly my thoughts too. My next thought is, "Has it been serviced on time & has the mechanic (technician) checked everything correctly?" If the car is serviced properly by a conscientious mechanic then that belt should have been seen that it was either stretching or deteriorating. Also, is the water pump on the same belt & did it seize? Anyhow, just my thoughts.
Also two other possibilities:

1) the alternator may not be charging properly, so the battery is in a low charge state. Doesn't then take much to render things inoperable, with the electric power steering taking 80-90 Amps if you turn the wheel with the vehicle stationary.

2) Slipping drive belt, again reducing battery charge.

Of course, after 13 years, the battery may well be knackered anyway!
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Old 21st November 2017
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Re: Bloody cars !

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Originally Posted by Simon Bee View Post
Hi Ross,

The car has always been serviced when due which is 'once annually' as per Toyota recommendation, one year a 'full service' the next an 'interim' one.
Its latest service was May this year so maybe deterioration of the belt was not obvious back then. I'll arrange for the garage to pick it up, I'm not going to attempt to drive it the one mile to said garage during the morning rush hour.

Simon
Which means that the belt may not have been looked at for over two years! NEVER EVER trust a garage mechanic, no matter what the make or whether main dealer or not. They are under enormous pressure these days from especially main dealers to turn out more work in less time (all about profit), and it's inevitably that things don't get done properly.
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  #35  
Old 21st November 2017
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Re: Bloody cars !

One of the latest design trends is to fit electric cabin heating to cars. This is switched on automatically a short time after starting, and warms the cabin fairly quickly whilst the engine is still cold. The added load on the engine shortens the warm up cycle.

However, the electrical load on the system must be huge as these things draw about 2 KW / 160 Amps!

How long before cars are fitted with 24 Volt systems I wonder?

Unfortunately, this gubbins makes it even more difficult to know whether and when the engine has warmed up, as despite all the fancy (and unnecessary) electrical trickery it seems the manufacturers no longer consider a coolant temperature gauge to be important.
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  #36  
Old 21st November 2017
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Re: Bloody cars !

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Originally Posted by Otto View Post
An intermittent fault in the ignition system of my Triumph Spitfire in the early 70s took me months to find!
About 50 years ago my parents' next-door neighbour bought a brand new Ford Anglia, It kept stopping miles from home, completely randomly, and would also restart without a problem after a while. The main dealer couldn't find anything wrong, despite it going back umpteen times, and work done to rectify as many diagnoses. Eventually, I got a multimeter out, and went to have a look at it. I spotted the fault purely by chance.

In the distributor, the braided wire that took power from the connector to the outside world across to the moving points, though a sleeve, was trapped under the frame of the points! With the points being moved under the influence of vacuum advance, it got cut through - but the broken ends just touched with everything static. If he put his foot down hard, the vac advance went to full movement, the wires parted, and bingo - the engine stopped!

Similarly in 1973 I had a Triumph Toledo which wouldn't start every time the weather went to freezing. That was a swine to find too. The moving point went tight onto its pin when the temperature went low enough, so the points opened all right, but came back together v e r y s l o w l y!

There is an awful lot of work done nowadays to make cars reliable that was not done in decades past. And even more important, work on structural integrity, metal fatigue that could NOT be done even forty years ago. Easy to knock modern cars, but the safety and comfort they give, and overall reliability is eons away from what we had in the 1960s and 70s.
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  #37  
Old 21st November 2017
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Re: Bloody cars !

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Originally Posted by Naughty Nigel View Post
I don't know if it is still allowed, but at one time it was permissible to add up to one gallon of kerosene / paraffin to ten gallons of diesel fuel oil to prevent waxing at low temperatures.
A) No- illegal.

B) not necessary - there are anti waxing agents added anyway.
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  #38  
Old 21st November 2017
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Re: Bloody cars !

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Originally Posted by KeithL View Post
Also two other possibilities:

1) the alternator may not be charging properly, so the battery is in a low charge state. Doesn't then take much to render things inoperable, with the electric power steering taking 80-90 Amps if you turn the wheel with the vehicle stationary.
I think you'll find the power steering pump (along with certain other heavy loads) will only operate when the alternator is charging; hence the sudden failure when the belt snapped.

In defence of the dealer, the current Multi-V belts don't show wear in the same way as the old V belts did. They also last much, much longer, which only adds to the problem. They are usually only changed when the timing belt is changed, which can be up to about 100,000 miles nowadays.
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  #39  
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Re: Bloody cars !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Naughty Nigel View Post
I think you'll find the power steering pump (along with certain other heavy loads) will only operate when the alternator is charging; hence the sudden failure when the belt snapped.

In defence of the dealer, the current Multi-V belts don't show wear in the same way as the old V belts did. They also last much, much longer, which only adds to the problem. They are usually only changed when the timing belt is changed, which can be up to about 100,000 miles nowadays.
The alternator brushes can give intermittent charging, or if one phase is not working, low charge. And you can get other faults internal to the alternator.

I'm not sure if the RAV 4 is full electric PAS or not; I would expect it to be 13 years ago.
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Re: Bloody cars !

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Originally Posted by KeithL View Post
A) No- illegal.

B) not necessary - there are anti waxing agents added anyway.
Thank you. I was told this about thirty years ago when waxing was still a big problem, but as you say, it doesn't happen now.

Whilst on the subject, what can you tell us about fuels and fuel additives?
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  #41  
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Re: Bloody cars !

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Originally Posted by KeithL View Post
The alternator brushes can give intermittent charging, or if one phase is not working, low charge. And you can get other faults internal to the alternator.

I'm not sure if the RAV 4 is full electric PAS or not; I would expect it to be 13 years ago.
We have a ten year old Astra (Mk V) which has fully electric PAS.
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  #42  
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Re: Bloody cars !

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Originally Posted by Otto View Post
Electric PAS is all in the cause of energy saving, regulations etc. Manufacturers are chasing the best possible mpg figures.
They also lie about them!
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  #43  
Old 21st November 2017
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Re: Bloody cars !

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Originally Posted by Naughty Nigel View Post
Thank you. I was told this about thirty years ago when waxing was still a big problem, but as you say, it doesn't happen now.

Whilst on the subject, what can you tell us about fuels and fuel additives?
Not an awful lot of detail, because it wasn't my area of expertise; my job was to analyze electronic control systems for safe functionality, and that includes under fault conditions, and EMC.

I do know that a lot of common rail diesels don't do well with supermarket diesel. The latter is bought on the spot market, and providing it meets legal requirements, can be anything. When I had a diesel Kia, I had a weird problem with it, talked to a fueling guy at work, and was told to buy a tank of good diesel about every four fill-ups: something like Shell V-Max, for instance, since it would have proper means for cleaning injectors etc.

I know there are differences between formulation of fuels in different parts of the world. Back in the early 80s, Jaguars exported tho Japan had a problem with destroying fuel pumps. Japanese gasoline did not have additives that were put in in Europe to lubricate fuel pumps, which caused fuel pump bearings to wear out or seize in Japan. The solution was a different pump, IIRC.
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Old 21st November 2017
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Re: Bloody cars !

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Originally Posted by Naughty Nigel View Post
They also lie about them!
Actually, they don't. The test cycles were designed to give a common standard for vehicles to be tested to, otherwise published fuel figures would be meaningless. What having a common standard does is to enable the consumer to compare vehicles tested to the same driving profiles. The industry acknowledges that you won't get the same results on the road, not least because every driver has a different style, may or may not be competent, will drive under different conditions, etc.

When assessing functional safety we had to develop a measure for severity of the consequences of a collision or hazard. That measure had to recognize that there were almost infinite possibilities: weather, traffic, state of the vehicle, competence of the driver in various ways, how well serviced, and so on. The final measure was "Controllability", which was tested on a series of tests in a driving simulator at the Uni of Leeds, on a sample of drivers taken off the street. Controllability had to make average assumptions. If you think about it, what else could you do?

In one accident -real - that I faced in the early 90s, I had to avoid going under the trailer wheels of a jack-knifing articulated scrap wagon, which swerved, on a wet road to avoid a stationary car waiting to turn right (i.e. to my left), saw me, and ended up with the cab buried in a tree on my side of the road, bursting its fuel tank, and the trailer across my path - and despite ABS, I was aquaplaning downhill. I avoided the accident, through a combination of luck, skill, and experience. When the police arrived, I got a commendation for avoiding that accident, which was at a black spot that saw a serious incident at least once a month. How could you assess whether someone else would have avoided the same hazard? Someone else would inevitably have reacted differently to the way I did. What the consequence would have been is impossible to quantify. With a product like motor vehicles, engineers are always faced with a totally variable and ultimately unquantifiable "What If?", and the industry has done an enormous amount of research and development to make product improvements.
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  #45  
Old 21st November 2017
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Re: Bloody cars !

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Originally Posted by shenstone View Post
Mind you all that yearning for old technology doesn't mean you don't have problems ... I have 10 posts on my Land Rover blog labelled "breakdowns" https://landroverkaty.blogspot.co.uk...bel/Breakdowns

Regards
Andy
Hi Andy,

Yes I know but at least most of the time I would be able to fix it myself and the parts are cheap.

Simon
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