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The lounge Relax, take a break from photo and camera talk - have a chat about something else for a change. Just keep it clean and polite!

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  #16  
Old 25th June 2016
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Re: Do you want a second chance?

Whatever next? A petition to remain out... followed by even more of the Hokey Cokey ad nauseum.

The so called 'Great Debates' should have been called the Great Debacles as they were nothing more than slagging each other off. FOSKID was evidently high on the list from either side. If this was the best discussion groups of the educated elite on such an important and far reaching issue, then I'm even more embarrassed than ever.

As for the upsurge in wanting to REMAIN, the cry may have negative affects on any negotiations. The EU can't afford to relent too much, as to do so wiould encourage others to try the same gambit. However, the OUT vote may not become a reality. As Cameron has effectively done a runner, the new PM and MP's will have to decide what their best options are according to their individual constituency want. One thing for sure, there is plenty more in the slagging off stskes to come out for an airing.
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  #17  
Old 25th June 2016
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Re: Do you want a second chance?

Sad times, I feel. Since social media and the internet, everyone is an 'expert' and the art of healthy debate has been lost. It seems that if you don't agree with someone's point of view then you are an idiot. I agree that a vote of 50:50; since that is what it really is, should not mean leaving the EU but the conditions for the vote should have been set at the start. Throughout the whole campaign it was considered inconcievable that the public would vote this way. Hubris has brought down many and this, I think, is another example.

Regardless of my vote I think the majority of the British public, by a million or so, should be respected. To think otherwise is undemocratic. Unpalatable, maybe, but undemocratic nonetheless.

For context, a friend in Syria reminded me that contrary to many countries at least we can have differing opinions without having our heads cut off.

I think I may take a break from the internet for a while after tonight. It's a shame it seems so full of negativity at the moment - once you ignored all the porn it used to be full of videos of cats and drunk people falling over.
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  #18  
Old 25th June 2016
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Re: Do you want a second chance?

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Originally Posted by Naughty Nigel View Post
The 'vast majority' of young people didn't vote at all, which is why we have the outcome that we do.
Well, I haven't seen the figures as to the numbers in each age group who voted, but implicit in my comment was "the vast majority who voted". Perhaps I should have been more explicit.
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  #19  
Old 25th June 2016
Harold Gough Harold Gough is offline
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Re: Do you want a second chance?

An appalling idea.

Do you really want more lies, distortions and misrepresentations?

Do you want the Chancellor to resume talking-down the economy and the stock markets? This nation would be more broke than Greece.

I voted out this time and last time. It isn't (mainly, and wasn't then) about immigrants but about making our own laws and running our own tax and benefits system.

France has more dept that can ever be repaid and there are several other EU countries (whatever that means) in dire financial trouble. Our opt-out of responsibility for such matters could disappear overnight.

The idea of a free trade area is a good one but it does not need a superstate or a central government. The EU is unreformable, as evidenced by 40 years of history. The people who govern it are arrogant and power-mad.

Harold
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  #20  
Old 25th June 2016
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Re: Do you want a second chance?

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Well, I haven't seen the figures as to the numbers in each age group who voted, but implicit in my comment was "the vast majority who voted". Perhaps I should have been more explicit.
I admit that I haven't studied the figures all that closely myself, but the consensus from the experts seems to be that fewer young people voted than older generations, and that those who did vote voted to Remain.

If more young people had been motivated to vote we could have had a different outcome; but like the Scottish referendum I suspect we would have had calls for further referenda until certain individuals got the 'right' answer.

Unfortunely 'liking' posts on Facebook and 'sharing' statuses with 950 'friends' doesn't carry any weight in a referendum.
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Old 25th June 2016
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Re: Do you want a second chance?

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The people who govern it are arrogant and power-mad.
Many of them seem to be megalomaniacs but are unable to gain the power they crave by election.
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  #22  
Old 25th June 2016
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Re: Do you want a second chance?

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I wonder if there would have been a demand for a second referendum had the vote gone the other way?
Farage already said the very thing. The problem is that the Brexit campaign was corrupt. The Remain campaign may have been mentally tiresome, but it was not corrupt.

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  #23  
Old 25th June 2016
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Re: Do you want a second chance?

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The Remain campaign may have been mentally tiresome, but it was not corrupt.

Ian
Remain relied too much on scare tactics in my view, whilst failing to point out some of the more serious pitfalls that have come to light over the past 24 hours.

Presumably all of these were known about? Did Remain think these were too complicated for the electorate to understand?

Maybe they thought some (such as special arrangements for the City of London) might actually have cost votes.
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  #24  
Old 25th June 2016
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Re: Do you want a second chance?

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The margin was less than four percent. That is not a mandate for such a dramatic change. It appears that the vast majority of young people voted to stay, whereas the Leave vote was largely from the older generation - who won't have as long to live with the consequences.

The referendum was not legally binding and with such a narrow margin (down in the noise level really) there is no way it should be regarded as decisive. In my view Cameron should not have resigned in such a knee-jerk manner until the dust had settled and the results properly analysed.

I was not decisively in favour of either remaining or leaving but I chose Remain on the basis of better the devil you know, and because the young people I spoke to were in favour of that choice. They are the ones who'll have to live with it.

Did anyone ask Vote Leave how, if they used that mythical 350m a week to build lots of new hospitals, they proposed to staff them?

I signed the petition his morning.
Farage has already rowed back on that one!

I signed too.
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  #25  
Old 25th June 2016
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Re: Do you want a second chance?

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Originally Posted by Naughty Nigel View Post
Remain relied too much on scare tactics in my view, whilst failing to point out some of the more serious pitfalls that have come to light over the past 24 hours.

Presumably all of these were known about? Did Remain think these were too complicated for the electorate to understand?

Maybe they thought some (such as special arrangements for the City of London) might actually have cost votes.
Remain made the mistake of switching the target of their campaign off through an onslaught of dire warnings and statistics. Some of it was on the edge but most of it was based on viable suppositions.

Leave used outright misinformation and there is research data suggesting that quite a few voters took messages like the 350 million/week and an imminent threat of Turkey joining the EU as gospel.

Nevertheless, the reason why Leave amassed just enough votes to beat Remain was because many people decided to protest vote against the Establishment. They didn't vote on the referendum issues. The problem is that if the economy gets damaged by Leave's win, it will be these mainly lower income people who will suffer the most.

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  #26  
Old 25th June 2016
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Re: Do you want a second chance?

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Originally Posted by Ian View Post
Nevertheless, the reason why Leave amassed just enough votes to beat Remain was because many people decided to protest vote against the Establishment. They didn't vote on the referendum issues.
That's now pretty clear - but it's odd that no-one spotted this coming before. If they had, I doubt that the Remain campaign would have rolled out so many Establishment figures to defend the EU. For that matter, it might have been better if the government (PM & cabinet) had remained neutral.

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The problem is that if the economy gets damaged by Leave's win, it will be these mainly lower income people who will suffer the most.
That seems a foregone conclusion Ian. Madness of the first order. Cameron must be torturing himself over the decision to offer the referendum. I feel for him personally but really, what the hell was he thinking!?
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  #27  
Old 26th June 2016
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Re: Do you want a second chance?

If another referendum were to be held and the outcome inverted by precisely the same margin, then would Leave have a right to counter-petition for a third referendum, and so on? The notion of running a second referendum to appease Remain seems as bizarre as watching a videotape rewind. Would it not be like a football match in which one side won by a few points and the disgruntled other demands extra time to play on until they were in front?

As the referendum is not legally binding, and given that Cameron prior to the referendum had repeatedly promised that there would be no going back should Leave win, then how likely is it that he would now do a mighty political double backflip with pike and revoke his resignation before invoking Article 50?
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  #28  
Old 26th June 2016
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Re: Do you want a second chance?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Naughty Nigel View Post
Unfortunely 'liking' posts on Facebook and 'sharing' statuses with 950 'friends' doesn't carry any weight in a referendum.
This is the intellectual poison of social media.

Harold
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  #29  
Old 26th June 2016
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Re: Do you want a second chance?

Whatever the future holds I do believe that things with regard to the way the EU is being run will change. Our vote to come out has been a wake-up call welcomed by more than just a few. So much so, that a few days ago, one of the top EU bods actually admitted they had got it all wrong. 'We never listened to the people, and this has to change'. Typical of the way things have been run by many of those in power.


The real issue is, will it ever change or is this just another snow job where good intentions continue to fall by the wayside? In or out, one things has become clear, change is in the air.


I don't think a Brexit is a done deal even though it's what was voted for. Those shouting from the roof-tops that we got it wrong are in one sense handing the negotiating power back to the EU if push should come to shove.


Bottom line. The man who gave us the referendum is no longer in the equation so all bets are off.


The mucking out of the byre that is Westminster has already begun, even if only on this side if the channel.

All politicians from Neanderthal times onwards have always had an escape clause and I'm sure this bunch of unruly school children will be no different.
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  #30  
Old 26th June 2016
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Re: Do you want a second chance?

Hi, If we did leave, it turns out it could cost 400 billion sterling to do so, plus all the trade losses, no one ever mentioned that till after the voting was over.
If you work that out it would be over 45 years annual subscriptions, and that is just the tip of the iceberg need not say any more.
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