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Olympus OM-D E-M5 Mark II The first OM-D's successor.

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  #16  
Old 15th March 2015
snerkler snerkler is offline
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Re: Shutter Shock :(

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Originally Posted by Ross the fiddler View Post
At that known shutter speed it is worthwhile using the '0' second anti-shock feature. It is a case of knowing the camera's abilities (or the users) & its limitations & use it accordingly. On the E-M1 I leave it set to '0' second & just select it in the drive mode any time I think I need it (although the thinking part I find difficult at times ).
TBH I just have it set in AS mode 0s permanently then I don't have to worry about turning it off and on. Touch wood I'll not get any artefacts.

Does that shutter shock not seem extreme though, or is this as bad as it's been in the past with the original EM5?
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  #17  
Old 15th March 2015
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Re: Shutter Shock :(

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Originally Posted by pdk42 View Post
Which lens were you using for this shot Ralph?
Ralph? I'm not Ralph

All my shots to date have been the 12-40mm f2.8.
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  #18  
Old 15th March 2015
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Re: Shutter Shock :(

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Originally Posted by snerkler View Post
TBH I just have it set in AS mode 0s permanently then I don't have to worry about turning it off and on. Touch wood I'll not get any artefacts.

Does that shutter shock not seem extreme though, or is this as bad as it's been in the past with the original EM5?
The original E-M5 wasn't so bad with a fairly quiet shutter but became more noticeable on the E-M1 with a stronger shutter system. I use 1/8 second delay on the E-M5 if it is needed.
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Old 15th March 2015
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Re: Shutter Shock :(

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Originally Posted by Ross the fiddler View Post
The original E-M5 wasn't so bad with a fairly quiet shutter but became more noticeable on the E-M1 with a stronger shutter system. I use 1/8 second delay on the E-M5 if it is needed.
So the EM1 has it too? Is it as bad as the 2nd example I've posted. I'm seriously considering sending it back for a replacement as I've not seen examples as noticeable as mine and starting to think I've got a particularly bad example, but if they're all as bad then there seems little point.
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Old 15th March 2015
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Re: Shutter Shock :(

Just for info purposes I tested using it with the 12-32mm and it's the same. I've now found that it's worse (and by worse I mean more consistent) at 1/125.
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Old 15th March 2015
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Re: Shutter Shock :(

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Originally Posted by snerkler View Post
So the EM1 has it too? Is it as bad as the 2nd example I've posted. I'm seriously considering sending it back for a replacement as I've not seen examples as noticeable as mine and starting to think I've got a particularly bad example, but if they're all as bad then there seems little point.
It's because of the vibrations that can occur when the shutter is first closed (from Live View) & opened, so they introduced a small delay before starting exposure with the electronic shutter (brought in a firmware update last year). It's just something to be aware of & to use appropriate settings where needed, employing the '0' second Antishock function when desired. At least you also have the Silent Shutter option on the E-M5 II as well.
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  #22  
Old 16th March 2015
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Re: Shutter Shock :(

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ross the fiddler View Post
It's because of the vibrations that can occur when the shutter is first closed (from Live View) & opened, so they introduced a small delay before starting exposure with the electronic shutter (brought in a firmware update last year). It's just something to be aware of & to use appropriate settings where needed, employing the '0' second Antishock function when desired. At least you also have the Silent Shutter option on the E-M5 II as well.
Hi there Ross!

I thought that the shutter shock was caused by the first curtain hitting the top - hence the shutter shock is worse at certain speeds (As the shutter speed gets closer to the fastest shutter speed where the whole sensor is exposed at one time - 1/320th I think - it's the same as the flash sync speed).

I also thought that the solution was an electronic first curtain - hence the 0 second anti-shock only working up to a certain speed.

Obviously I could well be wrong - I'll have to see if I can find where I got the information!

Cheers,

Ralph.
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Old 16th March 2015
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Re: Shutter Shock :(

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Originally Posted by Ralph Harwood View Post
I also thought that the solution was an electronic first curtain - hence the 0 second anti-shock only working up to a certain speed.
Hi Ross!

I've just re-read your explanation and that's exactly what you said - I'm obviously more than half asleep tonight! My info came from the Gary Friedman book on the E-M1 (page 269).

Cheers,

Ralph.
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Re: Shutter Shock :(

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Originally Posted by Ralph Harwood View Post
Hi Ross!

I've just re-read your explanation and that's exactly what you said - I'm obviously more than half asleep tonight! My info came from the Gary Friedman book on the E-M1 (page 269).

Cheers,

Ralph.
My brain slows down at any time of day, not just night.

Thanks for that shutter speed limit figure. The shock was graphed somewhere (& it would have to be the end of opening shock or impact that is most noticeable) with a consistent length of time as the vibrations decay with the delayed electronic shutter being as effective as it is.
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  #25  
Old 16th March 2015
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Re: Shutter Shock :(

The shutter sequence (for times >320th sec) is:

0 - press shutter
1 - move bottom curtain to top (end live view)
2 - move bottom curtain to bottom (open 1st curtain)
3 - (expose)
4 - move top curtain to bottom (close 2nd curtain) - ends exposure
5 - move top curtain to top (start live view again)

Shutter shock happens after step (2) - the opening of the bottom (1st curtain). The problem is that as the blades of the bottom curtain hit the stops, they cause vibrations in the sensor assembly that take a little time to settle. The EFCS (0s anti-shock) adds about 20ms after the curtain opens before starting the exposure electronically. This gives time for the vibrations to die down.

The vibrations without 0s anti-shock only affect certain speeds since:

a) longer exposure times exceed the time for the damping to die down naturally so the vibration period is much lessvthan the total exposure = sharp pictures

b) shorter exposure times (<320th sec) cause the image to be exposed as a horizontal stripe (shutter open like a letter box) which means the 1st curtain only hits the stops at the very end of the exposure so the time window for blur is small and only affects the bottom of the sensor (top of the exposed image). This is also the reason why 0s anti-shock only works up to 1/320s.

Given that the delay Oly added is about 20ms - which is 1/50th sec, I'm guessing that the critical vibration period is about half that - 100th sec; so bang in the area where users experience blurring.

The original (pre EFCS) delay adds the delay after step 0, which only protects against movement induced by pressing the shutter release.
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  #26  
Old 17th March 2015
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Re: Shutter Shock :(

That's a good explanation.
Makes me wonder whether the Olympus engineers explored dampening the effects, or were they saddled by the need to use a common part from their existing line up.
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Old 17th March 2015
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Re: Shutter Shock :(

Hi there Ricoh!

With the wonders they have worked with the IBIS I'm surprised they don't just measure the shutter shock and wiggle the sensor instead to damp it out - they obviously have the technology to measure and move the sensor that finely, especially on the new E-M5mkii.

Cheers,

Ralph.
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Old 17th March 2015
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Re: Shutter Shock :(

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Originally Posted by Ralph Harwood View Post
Hi there Ricoh!

With the wonders they have worked with the IBIS I'm surprised they don't just measure the shutter shock and wiggle the sensor instead to damp it out - they obviously have the technology to measure and move the sensor that finely, especially on the new E-M5mkii.

Cheers,

Ralph.
The vibrations will be random of course and within the IBIS itself so I think it's probably impossible for the IBIS to correct it.
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Old 17th March 2015
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Re: Shutter Shock :(

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Originally Posted by Ricoh View Post
That's a good explanation.
Makes me wonder whether the Olympus engineers explored dampening the effects, or were they saddled by the need to use a common part from their existing line up.
I agree Steve. In fact, I'm surprised given all the agro Oly received over shutter shock and the fact that their engineers now have a good handle on its cause (having fixed it via EFCS) that it's still there on the E-M5ii. It's obviously a completely new shutter (different sound, more features such as continuous AS) so I would have expected there to have been design effort to avoid the problem in the first place. OTOH, a mechanical fix (which is what is needed) would involve controlled deceleration of the blades which I guess would mean more complexity, more springs, more space, slower operation etc.
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Old 17th March 2015
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Re: Shutter Shock :(

Ralph,
In my past I've involved with problems with rapidly decelerating mechanisms, ie hitting end stops. When you instrument the system, the g levels can be suprisingly high, and the frequency response can extend quite high too. Small structures such as what we're talking about here could easily run from near near dc to 20khz, but obviously I don't know enough to make more than a guess. What I'm guessing is the system response is beyond the frequency response of the image stabiliser.
Cheers,
Steve.
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