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The lounge Relax, take a break from photo and camera talk - have a chat about something else for a change. Just keep it clean and polite!

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Old 8th June 2017
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Depressing article in The Guardian...

.. and a perfect rationale for why I voted Labour today for the first time in my life:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...d-uk-elections
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Old 8th June 2017
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Re: Depressing article in The Guardian...

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Originally Posted by pdk42 View Post
.. and a perfect rationale for why I voted Labour today for the first time in my life:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...d-uk-elections
Having read the article I kind of understand where you are coming from Paul.

However, I still do not understand how deliberately crashing the economy will benefit anyone.

I am reminded of the safety briefing whilst taxiing to the airport runway when they say "fit your own oxygen mask before attempting to help others".

In other words, if you are blacking out owing to lack of oxygen you will be unable to help others.

I too lament the passing of the old industries, particularly my own (shipbuilding), but I know to my own cost that the trades unions did far more damage than any government.

And it isn't just the working classes and heavy industry that have suffered in recent years. Many 'white' and 'blue collar' jobs have disappeared too.
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Old 9th June 2017
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Re: Depressing article in The Guardian...

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Originally Posted by Naughty Nigel View Post
Having read the article I kind of understand where you are coming from Paul.

However, I still do not understand how deliberately crashing the economy will benefit anyone.

I am reminded of the safety briefing whilst taxiing to the airport runway when they say "fit your own oxygen mask before attempting to help others".

In other words, if you are blacking out owing to lack of oxygen you will be unable to help others.

I too lament the passing of the old industries, particularly my own (shipbuilding), but I know to my own cost that the trades unions did far more damage than any government.

And it isn't just the working classes and heavy industry that have suffered in recent years. Many 'white' and 'blue collar' jobs have disappeared too.
Well, I don't think that "deliberately crashing the economy" is Labour policy (at least last time I looked - but maybe Diane Abbott failed to cut and paste that bit during one of her funny turns ).

In any case, I think we're in for a very difficult time economically come what may. There are some very strong headwinds for the UK including:

- Brexit, and esp risks to key industries such as biotech, banking and motor manufacturing (in wider sense including supply chain)

- Severe lack of skills and training and a broken further and higher education sector

- Poor industrial productivity

- Continuing transfer of wealth from the old West to China and other emerging economies

- Decline of North Sea Oil & Gas

- Low industrial base

- Too much wealth concentrated in London and the south east - a waste of huge parts of the UK and its people

- Massive personal debt (amongst which student loans!)

- A growing base of low-paid, poorly-skilled and under-employed people who do nothing to improve our international competitiveness

We desperately need a new way of thinking. Slavish adherence to the free market will only keep us heading in the direction of increasing division of wealth and IMHO making the country a worse place for me and my children to live. Austerity has profoundly failed. We need to invest in our youth and their future with a positive vision. Labour don't tick all my boxes but at least they have run a positive campaign.

If it's a hung parliament as the polls predict my profound hope is that there's some cross-party collaboration to get us through Brexit.
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Old 9th June 2017
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Re: Depressing article in The Guardian...

if its a hung parliament then the bookmakers owe me 170 ��
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Old 9th June 2017
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Re: Depressing article in The Guardian...

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Originally Posted by pdk42 View Post
Well, I don't think that "deliberately crashing the economy" is Labour policy (at least last time I looked - but maybe Diane Abbott failed to cut and paste that bit during one of her funny turns ).
It's never their policy, downunder it just comes naturally.

We've had to choose the best of either bad bunch in the last few elections & it is depressing here, but I'm glad I don't have to go through Brexit though.

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Old 9th June 2017
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Re: Depressing article in The Guardian...

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Originally Posted by timboo View Post
if its a hung parliament then the bookmakers owe me 170 ��
Spend it wisely and enjoy!
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Old 9th June 2017
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Re: Depressing article in The Guardian...

Friday will see me at the polling booth intent on doing my bit
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Old 9th June 2017
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Re: Depressing article in The Guardian...

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Originally Posted by pdk42 View Post
If it's a hung parliament as the polls predict my profound hope is that there's some cross-party collaboration to get us through Brexit.
Aye, that would be sensible, wouldn't it. Unfortunately all I can see happening is all the parties on all sides being so desperate to score cheap short-term points that everything stagnates. I hope, but do not expect, to be proven wrong.

John
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Old 9th June 2017
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Re: Depressing article in The Guardian...

Its refreshing to see an outsiders view of politics in the UK but talking to a small number from the populace at large is never going to uncover sound economic and socio-political trends that affect political decisions. I don't think any party has tried to deliberately crash the economy but some decisions that seem wrong in the short term were, I'm sure, made with the best interests for the long term. Its always hard to see the "what if...?" and predict the future if a particular decision in the past had not been made.
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Old 9th June 2017
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Re: Depressing article in The Guardian...

Our political system has become a mess. We really need to clear out some of the dead wood in favour of new, younger talent. There are some older MP's with a vast amount of hands-on experience such as Ken Clarke, Alan Johnson, Menzies Campbell and Nick Clegg who are desperately needed right now, but others are just there for the beer.

However, politics aside, the 'people' identified in the Grauniad article are also their own worst enemies in my experience. They lament the lack of jobs and the old industries, but refuse to take work in new and developing industries.

I have a customer based in West Yorkshire that owing to continued growth has recently consolidated five smaller factories into one large factory. Most of the production work building bespoke vehicles is skilled or semi-skilled, well paid and regular. Most people able to use a jigsaw, electric drill, silicone sealant and screwdriver could do it.

The company has about 200 staff working on the factory floor. Given the employment prospects in the area you would think they would have no difficulty recruiting a local workforce, but most are Poles, because local people just don't want the work.

This is by no means an isolated case as I know from other business contacts. Even our warships are being welded by Poles because we don't have enough coded welders in the country. Yet there are plenty of opportunities for those wanting to retrain.

How on earth do we overcome this attitude problem?
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Old 9th June 2017
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Re: Depressing article in The Guardian...

Get rid of the Blair mantra that everyone should go to uni and get a degree. It has both devalued university education and destroyed the value of an honest trade.
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Old 9th June 2017
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Re: Depressing article in The Guardian...

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Get rid of the Blair mantra that everyone should go to uni and get a degree. It has both devalued university education and destroyed the value of an honest trade.
Totally agree - an absolutely crazy idea. Crazy not only in itself but crazy in that we royally screwed the vocational training market in our rush to create low-value degrees from converted CFEs and Polytechnics.
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Old 10th June 2017
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Re: Depressing article in The Guardian...

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Totally agree - an absolutely crazy idea. Crazy not only in itself but crazy in that we royally screwed the vocational training market in our rush to create low-value degrees from converted CFEs and Polytechnics.
Totally agree. We have created a perception that without a degree you are a failure when in reality we need the full team from cleaners to highly skilled engineers, scientists etc. with every shade of whatever colour you choose in between.

Let's return to value a good apprenticeship which produces a skilled "whatever".

Let's also treat people like people instead of numbers so that they in turn feel they want to put that extra bit of effort in which in turn benefits all. In most cases if you behaver well to people they will respond, not always of course as some people will sadly always be unreasonable, and the workplace becomes a happier place.

One of the main reasons for my early retirement was the pressure on me to stop doing just that and produce pretty PowerPoints and spreadsheets rather than concentrate on maintaining a cohesive team who worked for and with our customers. That latter point won a major multi million pound contract a few months before I left but the powers that be failed to recognise that key factor and credited good salesmanship instead. Idiots. I voted with my feet.

So let's return to teamwork where everyone feels valued and also that they have a voice.

That is of course the exact opposite of what we have now. Divided and with many feeling utterly unrepresented and ignored. I count myself very much in that category.

First step is to get rid of the totally broken first past the post electoral system. I know many on this forum will disagree with that stating, amongst other things, that we have already had a referendum on that. We did not. We had a vote on AV which even the most ardent proponent of Proportional Voting would agree is poor. That is why Cameron chose it of course in what was a dress rehearsal for the EU referendum in terms of half truths, scare mongering, downright lies and pure propaganda.

Consider the notion that we had had a proper debate on real PV systems and had adopted one of them as so many countries have. We may well have not have ended up in this total mess we are in now. Just a thought.

I think that is more than enough from this isolated, grumpy and depressingly true blue corner of Essex.

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Old 10th June 2017
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Re: Depressing article in The Guardian...

I think there are a few people on this thread who could do a much better job, and have more of an idea of what's needed, in running this country. I've never been more disillusioned over the political situation than now. A weak government desperately trying to survive and the EU members looking on like a pack of wild dogs waiting to rip us to pieces

Steve
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Old 10th June 2017
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Re: Depressing article in The Guardian...

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EU members looking on like a pack of wild dogs waiting to rip us to pieces

Steve
This is so true. There was someone on radio 4 on Fri from the European People's Party (Junker's mob) who sounded so damned smug and dismissive of the UK. His basic message was "you've pressed the button on the leave process, we're ready to negotiate, where are you? You'd better hurry up because we've got better things to do. We're reforming and building a future, you lot go and sort out your petty politics and leave us alone".

This will be the sad truth of Brexit - we'll lose another chunk of our relevance on the world's stage and our former "partners" will have no greater pleasure than knifing us and then sitting back in schadenfreude.
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