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Olympus OM-D E-M1 The first Micro Four Thirds camera that offers phase detect focusing so you can use Four Thirds DSLR lenses normally as well a Micro Four Thirds lenses.

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  #16  
Old 23rd November 2014
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Re: Picture Mode and RAW

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Originally Posted by PeterBirder View Post
IIRC I think Chevvyf1 got the information from someone at SRS.

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That could well be Matt. As you may know, I live uncomfortably close to SRS for my wallet, and I recall speaking to him just after the topic had first been raised. He thought that a woman customer on the phone had posed this theory, which he had heard before. He said he did not know if it was true or not. Sort of Chinese Whispers (with apologies to the Chinese).
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  #17  
Old 23rd November 2014
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Re: Picture Mode and RAW

Why doesn't someone ask Olympus to comment on this? Ian/Mark can you follow this up?
Chevvy explained it to me at the Giffords Circus event and I tried it for a while. Not sure I could tell any difference though except it messed up my jpgs as expected so I reverted back to my normal settings.
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Old 23rd November 2014
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Re: Picture Mode and RAW

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Originally Posted by StephenL View Post
That could well be Matt. As you may know, I live uncomfortably close to SRS for my wallet, and I recall speaking to him just after the topic had first been raised. He thought that a woman customer on the phone had posed this theory, which he had heard before. He said he did not know if it was true or not. Sort of Chinese Whispers (with apologies to the Chinese).
Yes it was Matt that explained it to me, around 2 years ago, maybe longer. This was when I was contemplating moving to m4/3 and all the it can't do BIF and moving objects talk was going on in the 4m. He quite clearly explained things and set up the PL5 he just sold me for BIF, the settings he used in his M5. I think I did ask an Olympus rep and he did verify that those adjustments did increase focus accuracy of CDAF. I say I think because I probably did ask, but because he verified what Matt told me I don't clearly remember. I believe it was Matt that also explained this to Chevvy. To the serious doubters, (I was one), Matt carries the proof with him on a Tablet, or he did. He shoots BIF and airshows so before I bought I saw the results of what he was able to achieve.
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Old 23rd November 2014
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Re: Picture Mode and RAW

My goodness that opened a can of worms. So there's a theory that if you set the Contrast to +2 and choose Vibrant it will provide better focusing, even although I'm shooting in RAW. Interesting. I will ask the Olympus Rep about this on the 6th December as he's going to be at my local camera shop's Christmas show.
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Old 23rd November 2014
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Re: Picture Mode and RAW

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Originally Posted by birdboy View Post
The easiest way to test this with any mirrorless cameras is to set a mode such as B&W. What you see through the viewfinder or on the LCD will be a B&W picture even though you will have your picture mode set to RAW so clearly the image is a jpeg.
Why is this so? JPEG is an internationally agreed format for the compression of photographic images. What you see in Liveview or AVF does not have to conform to any standard file format does it? Cannot the camera manufacturer use whatever s/he pleases?
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Old 23rd November 2014
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Re: Picture Mode and RAW

Exactly. Jpegs are created in-camera or in the computer from raw data passed from the sensor. Even if you think you are shooting jpeg-only, you are actually shooting raw data which the camera is kindly converting for you then discarding the unwanted bits and bytes.
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  #22  
Old 23rd November 2014
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Re: Picture Mode and RAW

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Originally Posted by Adagio View Post
Why is this so? JPEG is an internationally agreed format for the compression of photographic images. What you see in Liveview or AVF does not have to conform to any standard file format does it? Cannot the camera manufacturer use whatever s/he pleases?
I agree.
This is why in post #10 I very carefully used the term " "jpeg like" file ". By this I meant "a file format that can be used by the Liveview and EVF displays".

Regards.
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Old 23rd November 2014
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Re: Picture Mode and RAW

From all I've read, it seems clear to me that:

- However complex you think the image processing is inside your camera, you've almost certainly underrated it! All the talk on forums (and I've done a bit myself) about how it works and what side-effects it produces are almost certainly hocus-pocus.

- There is no evidence at all to support the notion that changing live view/jpeg settings has any effect on focussing performance. I've seen several reasonably well controlled tests by people over on the m43 forum and they can't demonstrate any correlation at all.
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Old 23rd November 2014
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Re: Picture Mode and RAW

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Originally Posted by pdk42 View Post
From all I've read, it seems clear to me that:

- However complex you think the image processing is inside your camera, you've almost certainly underrated it! All the talk on forums (and I've done a bit myself) about how it works and what side-effects it produces are almost certainly hocus-pocus.

.
Very true.

I am reminded of the famous quote from Donald Rumsfeld, former US Secretary of State for Defence.

"... because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns -- the ones we don't know we don't know."

Regards.
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  #25  
Old 23rd November 2014
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Re: Picture Mode and RAW

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterBirder View Post
Very true.

I am reminded of the famous quote from Donald Rumsfeld, former US Secretary of State for Defence.

"... because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns -- the ones we don't know we don't know."

Regards.
A perfect example of a politician using a lot of words to say precisely nothing!
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Old 23rd November 2014
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Re: Picture Mode and RAW

Quote:
Originally Posted by pdk42 View Post
From all I've read, it seems clear to me that:

- However complex you think the image processing is inside your camera, you've almost certainly underrated it! All the talk on forums (and I've done a bit myself) about how it works and what side-effects it produces are almost certainly hocus-pocus.

- There is no evidence at all to support the notion that changing live view/jpeg settings has any effect on focussing performance. I've seen several reasonably well controlled tests by people over on the m43 forum and they can't demonstrate any correlation at all.
Spot on - and I realized this myself earlier today when I started to type my 2p worth, then thought better of it!
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Old 23rd November 2014
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Re: Picture Mode and RAW

Sounds like someone explaining cricket,
Goes like this:
The team that are out are trying to get the team that are in , out so that the team that are out can get the team that are in out so let the team that are out will be in and the team that were in are now trying to get the team that were out who are now in , out..........
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Old 24th November 2014
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Re: Picture Mode and RAW

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Originally Posted by Phill D View Post
Why doesn't someone ask Olympus to comment on this? Ian/Mark can you follow this up?
Chevvy explained it to me at the Giffords Circus event and I tried it for a while. Not sure I could tell any difference though except it messed up my jpgs as expected so I reverted back to my normal settings.
That would be so great if it could happen, but I think this is only a dream Olympus (or any other manufacturer) are not going to give to the general public detailed knowledge of how they do things, regrettably.

The end result is we all have a lively and interesting debate guessing how thinks work. One of us maybe right but we will never know.
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Old 25th November 2014
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Re: Picture Mode and RAW

Some points we should bear in mind:

Jpeg is a lossy compression algorithm. It does not store information on individual pixels.

The sensor is a bitmapped device laid out like a grid. Information from adjacent pixels are combined to produce an image... probably like a conventional bitmap image (not a jpeg!).

The viewfinder/viewscreen is another bitmapped device (as is your computer monitor).

You want maximum efficiency and effectiveness in your CDAF algorithm to make it as fast as possible.

You can't apply your settings (highlight/shadow, contrast, vibrancy, mono, art filters etc) directly to a jpeg. You have to decompress the jpeg, apply the settings, and then save as a jpeg.

I surmise:

The CDAF algorithm does not work on jpegs - why go to all the trouble to compress your image and loose information when you would have to uncompress it to work on it.

There is no jpeg compression going on between the sensor and the viewfinder/viewscreen. This is a waste of effort that slows down the refresh rate.

The jpeg compression is only done on the exposed image for the purpose of saving on the storage card - either as a jpeg file and/or as a small thumbnail inside the raw file. The jpeg is decompressed only if viewing a stored jpeg image in playback mode.

The viewfinder/viewscreen displays in real time most (all?) of picture changes you have set in your settings. These settings may cause the picture to become unviewable eg by turning the exposure compensation to maximum or minimum settings. You would not want to apply your CDAF algorithm to such a picture (actually of course to the sequence of pictures being read off the sensor).

The manufacturer would not want the user to be able adjust any settings that would compromise the efficiency of the camera. The corollary being that there are no settings you can make to increase that efficiency.

It therefore seems most likely that the CDAF algorithm is run before any user settings are applied to the picture displayed in the viewfinder/viewscreen.
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  #30  
Old 25th November 2014
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Re: Picture Mode and RAW

Given that the image has to be in focus before any there's any point in processing it, surely the AF system must work on unprocessed data from the sensor, and then only that data that's within the specified focussing area?
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